Cohabitation in larger chams

[jpowell86]

@Carlton when I first started recording my chameleons I had the same initial thought. I ended up making a box that encapsulated the camera to where only the lens was present. I got the idea from nest cams that biologist use to track the hatch/growth of birds. I'm sure you know exactly what I am talking about because you are a bird enthusiast.

I am surprised by the cohabitation of the fischeri and deremensis. It just goes to show you that every chameleon is individualistic in nature.

Are we anthropomorphizing? Observing something once and never questioning it again?

I think so! I believe people try to justify what they see with human emotions in a situation where human emotions plays no part.

@Extensionofgreen -

I still think that 10 years ago, acclimating 3 WC adults and getting an F2 clutch and at least another additional clutch was an amazing achievement and speaks not of perfect culture but certainly dedication and the best that could be done, at the time.

I agree. Getting a F2 clutch from an acclimated WC is super!! More than super!

But, permit me to pose a question just for the sake of the thread.

If you were to have that group all over again in the present, do you feel that you would keep them the same way in the same groupings?

Do you feel that if you had kept them slightly different you could have managed F3, F4 or F5 clutches?

 

[Extensionofgreen]

I answered earlier, I would do things differently, for sure. For one thing, 10 years ago, people were advising against any preformed Vitamin A supplementation and many of my CBB babies from Kristina suffered until I implemented vitamin A supplementation. I would have acclimated one WC animal at a time and not acquired so many animals so quickly. I got so enthused, I started biting off more than I could chew, having 19 chameleons, of various species. I think one has to be very mindful of how much care chameleons need, not just when things are going well, but when there's the unexpected. Life can also throw financial curves, relationships can dissolve, and hobbies can get shuffled to back burners; chameleons are not a hobby that will fare well given less than top priority.
I would have still housed the adults together, but would have raised the juveniles separately, so they could not have been bred, until maturity and health was better determined. That is of course contingent on them thriving and not showing stress due to the cohabitation. Not getting further offspring generations was due to me leaving the chameleon keeping due to life changes and demands and not because of any husbandry concerns.
I think implementing a web cam is a perfect idea, when considering future cohabitation.

 

[Carlton]

I am surprised by the cohabitation of the fischeri and deremensis. It just goes to show you that every chameleon is individualistic in nature.

I know. But, while thinking about it and trying to understand, a couple of ideas floated up...they were both wc, and adults. Its possible those two species might have encountered each other in the wild so maybe they already "knew" there was no real need to react. Neither species is known to be particularly aggressive. Also, they used quite different parts of the cage...the fischeri was content in the upper warmer areas and the deremensis was pretty sedentary and preferred the areas the fischeri didn't. If they didn't see each other as competitors or threats, maybe sharing didn't make much difference if each had what he needed.

 

[jpowell86]

I answered earlier, I would do things differently, for sure. For one thing, 10 years ago, people were advising against any preformed Vitamin A supplementation and many of my CBB babies from Kristina suffered until I implemented vitamin A supplementation. I would have acclimated one WC animal at a time and not acquired so many animals so quickly. I got so enthused, I started biting off more than I could chew, having 19 chameleons, of various species. I think one has to be very mindful of how much care chameleons need, not just when things are going well, but when there's the unexpected. Life can also throw financial curves, relationships can dissolve, and hobbies can get shuffled to back burners; chameleons are not a hobby that will fare well given less than top priority.
I would have still housed the adults together, but would have raised the juveniles separately, so they could not have been bred, until maturity and health was better determined. That is of course contingent on them thriving and not showing stress due to the cohabitation. Not getting further offspring generations was due to me leaving the chameleon keeping due to life changes and demands and not because of any husbandry concerns.
I think implementing a web cam is a perfect idea, when considering future cohabitation.

Absolutely. The general person doesn't quite understand the financial obligation and time required one needs to care for chameleons. It takes a constant eye.

I see what you mean about the issues with Vitamin A.

What was the age of your females before you personally liked to breed them?

The camera eases my mind for sure. Plus, at the end of the day you can go back and watch what they did throughout the day. It's kind of like your own National Geographic film, lol.

 

[Extensionofgreen]

All females that came bred came as WC adults. The CBB female that bred was young. She was at least a year old, but in my opinion, an animal having a problem free infertile clutch, before being bred is at minimum a good idea. I would have allowed her to clutch and mature another year, perhaps, but I was unaware she was able to produce, since she was still transitioning from juvenile to adult colors and smallish. Her clutch was very small.
That is what I mean by not keeping unsexed and immature animals in groups, in hindsight.
I think it would have been better to raise her to a larger size, perhaps with other females. In some instances, I found the melleri to do better in the company of others. I only had one WC melleri that seemed indifferent to other melleri and it was also the only one that was a biter and hisser, never settling down.
The other melleri seemed to be more at ease at least on close proximity to eachother, even if not in the same enclosure.
I wonder if the importation process creates bonds amongst them, while they are imprisoned in exporters stock cages together? My female Madge would be aggressive to me, in defense of another melleri she was held captive with, at the seller and exporter. Even 6 weeks later, she seemed to know and want to protect that animal from me administering meds.

 

[meandbuddy]

hello,,,i have been keeping breeding chameleons for 35 years,,i have exstensive experience with most species,,,,,i currently keep mellers,,,which I keep in groups,, generaly I keep them in groups of 3, one male and two females,,,for breeding purposes,,,,,but in the past I kept a large group together 8 animals,,,males and females,,,no problems ,,as long as their is enough space,,,but they don't breed when they are kept like this,,,,for breeding they need to be separated for a couple of weeks,,then keep together,,,the displaying will be instant,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,parsons chameleons,,,,i kept parsons together no problems,,,they ignore each other,,,,the only time you can have a problem ,,,is if you keep them in a seasonal cycle,,,,for breeding purposeses,,,,then the males can be aggressive to all,,,,,

Totally unrelated question do you still breed mellers and if so would purchasing one be a possibility? Or do you know of a breeder, I have Parsons, now looking for the other giant chameleon

 

[kinyonga]

Totally unrelated question do you still breed mellers and if so would purchasing one be a possibility? Or do you know of a breeder, I have Parsons, now looking for the other giant chameleon

You won’t likely get a reply…that person hasn’t been on line here for a while now.