Considering rescuing a baby vieled from the pet store this week...

F

Ferrah88

Member
As the title of the topic states, I am planning on rescuing a very under-nourished veiled from a nearby petstore this week. It' eyes are starting to look sunken, and it's quite thin, to the point you can almost see the entirety of the ribcage. The veiled is roughly 3 months old at most, judging by the size (it's the same size if not smaller than Marimo, who is a 4 month old ellioti - For those unfamilliar with the species, they are small to begin with). He/She only costs 29€ and I have no idea what happened to it's siblings... I do have a few questions before I do decide on it.

First off, what are the temperature and humidity requirements of a veiled that's that young? From what I've read, 26 - 28°C seems to be the ambient daytime range for adults, is this the same for really young chameleons?

Another question: Would I be biting off more than I can chew at the moment with this little guy? I'm not sure how bad the condition really is, but it makes me upset every time I go there... (I probably shouldn't go there, but I am hoping they will eventually get an ellioti in). What sort of things should I look out for?

Also, what size of terrarium would I be looking at for the first couple of months of it's life? I Know veileds need really large terrariums, but I can only afford a small one this month or next. Come summer I will be able to afford something bigger (well at least when he/she got bigger, it would certainly be at the top of my list of things to get!). Preferably in cm :p But I can manage with inches ^^

Lastly, and probably a really dumb question, but he/she wouldn't be able to "bunk" with my 4 month old ellioti for a couple of weeks due to temperature differences and the general temperaments of the chameleons in question, correct? Marimo has a fairly large terrarium, and both would be the same size, but I am really unsure. I don't know chameleons 100% and while part of me says "it might work, they're both the same size and babies" the other part says "chameleons are territorial, and you have no idea at what age they are aggressive. Plus the new one might be sick, and then what!"

Thanks in advance for any and all help :)
 
creddjobs said:
Hello! Check out this thread, it has alot of info on the questions you ask https://www.chameleonforums.com/basic-husbandry-38769/

Also Im not sure about buying a ill cham. I would rather get one from a breeder since I hear nothing but horror stories about pet stores.
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Yes, I do know of those stories. At the moment we aren't specifically looking for a new chameleon, but this one just looks at you, with really sad eyes, as if it's trying, but not being given what it's needed.. I can't stand to see any animal like that. (Which is why our aquarium is over crowded - I keep seeing fish that aren't kept how they should and buy them. They're all flourishing now though, despite having been sick and whatnot).

jannb said:
Welcome to the forums. First, each chameleon will need it's own enclosure. I have a blog linked below that will help to prepare you for you new veiled.
https://www.chameleonforums.com/blo...-keepers-young-veiled-panther-chameleons.html
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That's the link I've been looking for, thank you :) I figured they would need their own, which I was planning on any ways. Just not sure how long this little guy has left him him/her, which is why I brought the question up! (Normally, I would have never even considered the idea)


I'll be on the lookout for a terrarium still, hopefully I can find something suitable. Has anyone used one of those UV/Heating mixed bulbs? The dude at the same petstore keeps trying to recommend them to me as they "last longer". It would be a temporary thing until I could get the proper tube-bulb fixture, no store seems to have them in stock around here! And I do happen to have the fixture for the "all in one" bulb. (I also don't believe it produces all that much heat, but I would have to check.)
 
I don't have all the answers to the quests you are asking BUT my understanding is the all in one bulbs are only sold in higher wattages and I would worry it would be too much for a baby in a smaller enclosure. Hopefully someone with more experience with them will chime in.
 
crocky said:
I don't have all the answers to the quests you are asking BUT my understanding is the all in one bulbs are only sold in higher wattages and I would worry it would be too much for a baby in a smaller enclosure. Hopefully someone with more experience with them will chime in.
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I believe the one he was trying to sell me was 30 watt, but you're likely on the spot with that :p I just cant seem to find a proper light fixture for the UV bulbs! (Although I think we're getting closer to a proper one... we might have finally found something :D)
 
Kate said:
Sorry but I have to say it. If this Cham is sick, can you manage vets fees?
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Yes we can :) My husband has known the local vet for a long time (Since their first dog, which was when he was 7) and when we rescue pets, they tend to give us discounts. Yes, the do reptiles too :) The chameleon doesn't look as though it is sick (Although it's always a possibility, and if/when we get it, we will certainly bring in some samples to check for anything) it does look under nourished and dehydrated. So vet fees aren't a problem, else I wouldn't have even considered it! I know how expensive the vet can be, but we are fairly lucky with ours. Ours even took care of our cats when we first got them, who were about to be put down, being sickly and no one wanted them...

Either way, the costs were mostly going around the terrarium costs, because the ones I was looking at and eventually want cost anywhere from 400€ and up! And for some odd reason, the fixtures are 200€ for some of them, and they say that they are not allowed to be in damp areas (so no sitting on top of the chameleon terrarium) and need to be put above glass. The one we got for the current terarrium came with the complete set which we bought used. I do have a canopy thing laying around... I don't know if it's any good though. It's a small exo terra compact top, fit for one bulb. I also have a heating lamb, which I can fit with any household bulb for some heat, but not too much as it does state in the "Info for new keepers with young veiled or panther chameleons". I'm just worried the canopy wouldn't be enough... I would of course be getting a tube-fixure in the long run, I find they help the animal a lot more.

A full netted terrarium is best for veilds, so I was looking at those and I believe I also found a good one that I could move the ellioti into when he's ready for a bigger cage too! it's a 76cm x 42cm x 42cm exo terra full-net terrarium. A friend of mine has one, so I might ask him if his vield is ready for his "big boy" cage or not.
 
Kate said:
Sounds as if your sorted. Good luck.:) keep us posted.
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I certainly will! We put some extra funds aside, in case something does go wrong. My husband really wanted a veiled chameleon actually, ever since I got Marimo. So this one will likely be his, should we manage to save it. I saw it there before Christmas, with plenty of clutchmates, but I've no idea what happened to them. I cross my fingers and hope they were boughten.

We ordered a nice full-screen terrarium and today I will clean out a portion of our bedroom to give him/her a nice stress-free environment. (No other animals are allowed in the bedroom, so it's sort of the "holy" place in the house.) We have a nice quiet corner in which we can hang lights, and there's a shelf just below chest-level to keep him/her higher up. We have the lamp fixtures now, and are waiting on the correct bulbs. We have halogen lights in the house, so I had to order a "normal" traditional light bulb for the first time in years! I ordered a 15 Watt and a 25 Watt (I think it was anyways, definitely two Watt differences). I will start with the lower, checking the temperature often, and if for whatever reason it's too cold in there (Which it SHOULDN'T be, but one can never be too prepared) we have a warmer one. I have some medium-sized plastic cups which I will use as a dripper by poking small holes in the bottom, and the flies have all started hatching at once. I also have some crickets and will purchase some large fruit flies as well. Hopefully this is enough variety for the time being... I don't have access to a lot of smaller foods! I hear talk of mealworms being both ok and bad, but I'm still iffy on those. The wriggling doesn't bother me, but I think they might still be too big?

I will pick up some plants tomorrow. Regarding replanting, does it need to be done completely, if the water is draining properly? I was thinking washing the leaves with safe dish soap and hot water, then placing a layer of organic soil and large stones on top of the soil would be enough... I believe I read that it was fine somewhere, but I would just like a heads up on that one :)

Past that I think I should be all set. As soon as I get the chameleon, I will be making a vet appointment for some fecal tests. Of course I will be doing frequent mistings to make sure he/she drinks enough and monitor (If he/she lets me) feeding. I'm really hoping that's all this chameleon needs, not for my sake, but for the chameleon. I know how stressful it is to be so young and have health problems.

I will keep you all posted! Here's crossing fingers that this little one can and will make it!
 
You're very admirable for wanting to rescue the poor Cham. It really maddens me to see pet shops display any animal in sub-standard conditions, especially Chams.

If you do attempt to rescue the little guy keep in mind you may only be providing a comfortable, loving environment for the poor thing to die. Not entirely a bad thing IMO. Sometimes even with the best care and attention these sensitive reptiles don't pull through. I sometimes think, even though we are told they are incapable, that they must be suffering from sever depression from the previous poor care.

Another thing to consider is that a sick or poorly cared for Cham may be succumbing to some pathogenic condition which could cause problems with any Chams or reptiles you have (Rare I know).

I would say go for it. And if you don't I definitely would give the store manager of that pet shop a big piece of my mind as well as writing the corporate office of the store.

Good luck
 
dlegare said:
You're very admirable for wanting to rescue the poor Cham. It really maddens me to see pet shops display any animal in sub-standard conditions, especially Chams.

If you do attempt to rescue the little guy keep in mind you may only be providing a comfortable, loving environment for the poor thing to die. Not entirely a bad thing IMO. Sometimes even with the best care and attention these sensitive reptiles don't pull through. I sometimes think, even though we are told they are incapable, that they must be suffering from sever depression from the previous poor care.

Another thing to consider is that a sick or poorly cared for Cham may be succumbing to some pathogenic condition which could cause problems with any Chams or reptiles you have (Rare I know).

I would say go for it. And if you don't I definitely would give the store manager of that pet shop a big piece of my mind as well as writing the corporate office of the store.

Good luck
Click to expand...

I do understand that it might not make it, if something really is wrong with it.. and the only place I might be giving it is a comfortable place to die. I have done the same thing with a cat while living at my parents... some really stupid teenagers thought it would be funny to see what happens when you abuse a pregnant about-to-give-birth cat by hitting her and sticking firecrackers in places they shouldn't go. She didn't make it, but we did manage to save one kitten before she passed. It was really saddening, but we did try our best to give her a warm and comfortable place. Unfortunately, where I did live, they didn't give any help to suport stray animals, so us saying anything didn't do anything.

As for any sicknesses it may have, this is another reason why I wanted to be sure it's away from all the other animals. Marimo is on my computer desk where he can be high up and out of reach of the cats and dog, which isn't anywhere near the bedroom. Washing hands after feeding would of course be on the top of my list, as I don't want anything spreading around :p Just in case!

As for talking to the store owner, I did talk to someone last time I was there about how they keep their animals. Everything else seems OK there though, just not these little guys. I'm thinking someone had a clutch, kept one, and just "dumped" the babies on the petstore, who probably don't have enough knowledge to keep them. I did see them spraying the terrariums yesterday at least... so perhaps they're listening a bit. I'm not going to lay any full blame on the store, as it might not be their fault (Like I said, the other animals seem well and happy. Although one of the chameleons they have looks really dark and angry all the time, but at least not thin. Looks like he/she has been there a while though, so she might just be angry that she has no place to call home yet. She even hissed at me when I looked into the terrarium. On another note though, the panther they have is lovely!) I will see what I can do though, should I see them with any young chameleons again. This is the last one though, so now would be "too late" and we do stop in there often. I will be sure to tell them once more how to take care of young chameleons (I think between yesterday and today I have gathered the necessary information) so that they don't make the same mistake in the future!

Nothing would make me happier than to see some "life" in the chameleons eyes and maybe even a smile from it :)
 
DavidBuchan said:
Hello :) I have not read all of this thread (in Uni now, waiting for lecture to start.......)
But here is the caresheet I always recommend when someone says Veiled - https://www.chameleonforums.com/blogs/chameleonsinmyhouse/395-veiled-chameleon-care-sheet.html Hope this helps a little..........
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I'll have a look at it when I get home to double check everything. I think I should have the information needed for a veiled though! Cage is of the right height for a young one. I am just worried about the UVB bulb, I don't have the tubes yet, but rather UVB bulbs. This will only be temporary, until I can get a proper fixture for the tubes. Right now I have the following bulbs: http://www.livefoodsbypost.co.uk/exo-terra-reptiglo-50-compact-lamp-26w-pt2187-1768-p.asp (Those should be the same ones that I have.) We had the fixture for it already, which is why I opted for this at the moment! Please let me know if these are ok or bad, keeping in mind I will be changing in the near future, so this will only be used for a couple of months at most.
 
Ferrah88 said:
I'll have a look at it when I get home to double check everything. I think I should have the information needed for a veiled though! Cage is of the right height for a young one. I am just worried about the UVB bulb, I don't have the tubes yet, but rather UVB bulbs. This will only be temporary, until I can get a proper fixture for the tubes. Right now I have the following bulbs: http://www.livefoodsbypost.co.uk/exo-terra-reptiglo-50-compact-lamp-26w-pt2187-1768-p.asp (Those should be the same ones that I have.) We had the fixture for it already, which is why I opted for this at the moment! Please let me know if these are ok or bad, keeping in mind I will be changing in the near future, so this will only be used for a couple of months at most.
Click to expand...

hey if those are the bulbs the petstore guy told you had 2 in one he is most deffinetly lying. you do need a seperate heat bulb if you go with the reptiglo. those are only uvb. not too sure about the newer ones but i know the old compact uvbs had some cases of chameleons and other reptiles going blind. no regarding the mercury vapor bulbs (the ones that are both heat and uvb) there are mixed opinios. some people say that the produce too much heat and uv than is safe for chameleons. i am currently using and exo terra solar glo but this is only temportary until i can get the tube and heat bulb seperately. the newer exo terra solar glos produce weak amounts of uvb for a mercury vapor bulb but some believe the amount is propwer for chameleons. but only you can chose what to do with your cham/future cham. :)
 
Reganold said:
hey if those are the bulbs the petstore guy told you had 2 in one he is most deffinetly lying. you do need a seperate heat bulb if you go with the reptiglo. those are only uvb. not too sure about the newer ones but i know the old compact uvbs had some cases of chameleons and other reptiles going blind. no regarding the mercury vapor bulbs (the ones that are both heat and uvb) there are mixed opinios. some people say that the produce too much heat and uv than is safe for chameleons. i am currently using and exo terra solar glo but this is only temportary until i can get the tube and heat bulb seperately. the newer exo terra solar glos produce weak amounts of uvb for a mercury vapor bulb but some believe the amount is propwer for chameleons. but only you can chose what to do with your cham/future cham. :)
Click to expand...

No, those aren't the "2 in ones" he was talking about. This is the only one that will fit in the canopy I have at the moment. I will be in the same situation as you: Using it temporarily until I get one that holds tubes (Exactly like the one I have on the other terrarium). Do you happen to know the span of time the bulbs were used before something happened? Also, what would signs be, if something is up? Eye rubbing and/or leaky eyes?

I will also be putting an abuuuundance of plants in the terrarium as well, if that makes a difference, so it would have plenty of places to retreat to if need be. Obviously not overcrowding things either!
 
I know it's heartbreaking, but as someone who works at a pet store, and a really caring one at that, I try to avoid rescuing animals from other stores that are in not-so-great condition. A few things to think about:
First of all, it is possible that this animal is sick and possibly with something contagious that can infect your other animals. To be honest, I'm more of a fish and frog guy, so I'm not sure how common contagious reptile pathogens are, outside of parasites. But it is possible that you could be putting your own animals at risk.
The second thing is, many "bad" pet stores are interested in animals that sell. Buying a chameleon from this place only encourages them to restock. Their reasoning is, "the last one sold, so why wouldn't this one?"

I think the best thing to do is to try talking to the owner or the main reptile person. Make sure to approach them casually and not brigade their poor husbandry. Instead, think about what they could do differently that may help the situation. What is wrong with the setup the chameleon is in or the diet they are being fed? See if the person would like to have an open dialoge with you. Any good keeper would like to solve the problem rather than dismissing you because of pride. They may not know a lot about chameleons and the required care or even recognize the warning signs that you mentioned in your first post. Or on the other hand, they may know a lot and the issue resides in something else entirely. As I'm sure you know, young chameleons are often challenging and some do not survive, even though someone is doing everything "by the book". And the little ones also require a lot of extra time. The caretaker may not know to make them a priority. This way, the little guy may be saved, as well the next batch.

If you still feel that the store will not provide the proper care, then I leave it up to you if you want to rescue him or not. If the keeper recognizes this as well, they may sell you the chameleon at or just above their cost. If they do not make any money on it, they will likely reconsider getting another in the future. But if you leave it in their care and it dies, they certainly will.
 
fishieness said:
I know it's heartbreaking, but as someone who works at a pet store, and a really caring one at that, I try to avoid rescuing animals from other stores that are in not-so-great condition. A few things to think about:
First of all, it is possible that this animal is sick and possibly with something contagious that can infect your other animals. To be honest, I'm more of a fish and frog guy, so I'm not sure how common contagious reptile pathogens are, outside of parasites. But it is possible that you could be putting your own animals at risk.
The second thing is, many "bad" pet stores are interested in animals that sell. Buying a chameleon from this place only encourages them to restock. Their reasoning is, "the last one sold, so why wouldn't this one?"





I think the best thing to do is to try talking to the owner or the main reptile person. Make sure to approach them casually and not brigade their poor husbandry. Instead, think about what they could do differently that may help the situation. What is wrong with the setup the chameleon is in or the diet they are being fed? See if the person would like to have an open dialoge with you. Any good keeper would like to solve the problem rather than dismissing you because of pride. They may not know a lot about chameleons and the required care or even recognize the warning signs that you mentioned in your first post. Or on the other hand, they may know a lot and the issue resides in something else entirely. As I'm sure you know, young chameleons are often challenging and some do not survive, even though someone is doing everything "by the book". And the little ones also require a lot of extra time. The caretaker may not know to make them a priority. This way, the little guy may be saved, as well the next batch.

If you still feel that the store will not provide the proper care, then I leave it up to you if you want to rescue him or not. If the keeper recognizes this as well, they may sell you the chameleon at or just above their cost. If they do not make any money on it, they will likely reconsider getting another in the future. But if you leave it in their care and it dies, they certainly will.
Click to expand...


I am not trying to attack you . but I agre entirely with fishieness. you are gong way out of your way to save this cham but you may be making things worse for the next batch of chams that come in......you said it your self hat you dont know were the rest wen:eek:t...now that being said...if your going to buy the baby vielded you sound like your going in the right directions and you sound like yordoing your reseach and are willing to help this guy:D......again not to attack you i think its a vary good thing to do and wish i had the founding to also do so.....but you should make sure every thing is right before you buy this cham or else you could be cousing more harm to this cham then good......that said i wish you luck on your cham and i hope he bounces back... when you do buy him if i were you. you should make a care sheet for the pet store when you buy the cham that may help them if thewy do deside to order more :mad:....im sure he/she has a good home with you and you seem like you have your head on your sholders and are ready to take this little guy on:D. i also think what your doing is really cool
 
@fishiness & tony19

I inquired at the pet store today as to where they got the chameleons from. Apparently the one that was left was from a litter that just happened to be thrown at them by another chameleon owner (Hence the really cheap price) and they usually don't stock young chameleons (I can see why - The young ones were in baad shape, and the older ones are doing good. They're about 10 months the reptile keeper told me). I asked them if they would eventually be getting more in, and they said no, they don't plan on it. They don't make enough off of babies, because most people only want the older, ready-to-breed ones. So by saving this chameleon, I am not really making them any money, and like stated above, they just wanted to get rid of them. I also witnessed the problem first-hand. (Turns out there were two larger chameleons I didn't see the other day when I was there. They're actually quite a lot bigger.)

The story goes as follows:

We entered the store and went directly tot he guy that was, at the time, feeding the reptiles. We asked him, out of curiosity, how many chameleons there were left. He proceeded to stop feeding, and then decided to show us via feeding the young chameleons. He put these really large grasshoppers in there, and the one that I have been looking at immediately snatched one up. This grasshopper, however, was about as big as her body, perhaps bigger. She could hardly get her mouth around it, but starving as she was, she HAD to try. And then, almost as if drawn to the crunching of grasshopper head, one of the larger ones (Which are easily twice as large) snatched it right out of her mouth! Ripped it right out... After that she tried for another, but I think she was too tired to try anymore... her tongue flopped out at a grasshopper, roughly the same size as the first, and that was that. She was walked on and everything. She was completely skin and bones. I asked the person feeding the chameleons if they tried SMALLER food, and he said "there's some running around in there, crickets and stuff". I told him he should try and make sure SHE eats, but he said that she just wants to eat a grasshopper badly. When the smaller prey is in there, the bigger ones just snatch it up too quick. *Facepalm*

I immediately told the guy I wanted her. He tried to convince me to leave her there and take one of the more "healthy" and "stronger" ones. I told him that I would like to make sure she gets the food and care she needs. They were, as said, doing fine with the bigger ones. She just wasn't getting anything to eat. When you only throw food in there every day, there's no telling whether or not they get enough food... he agreed and packed her up for me. He also gave her to me for 10€ rather than the 29€ he was charging for the others.

Now that I got that off my chest. One of the wonders here with Amazon Prime, is that I had the stuff delivered already. I couldn't stand it.. the poor thing has NOTHING left on her and every rib is showing. Her hips (if that's what they're called on lizards) were protruding like I have never seen before. I had a couple of spare plants that were too tall for the other enclosure, cut them down a bit, washed them once more, and set up the terarrium immediately. Tomorrow I will fix the whole thing and position things a bit better, seeing as I wanted some fuller plants and more vines. I will also go to the forest nearby and pick up some nice sticks for her. (I will of course clean and bake them, as stated here on the forums).

When I put her on the plant, I put some flies in. I'm not sure if you should feed animals as soon as they get home (the guy told me I shouldn't, but she is so light you can't even feel her. Her grip is also extremely weak.) but I did anyways. Immediately she tried twice to snatch the first fly, but it was far away and kept missing. I opted to hand-feed her after that, and she (I think) thanked me for it. She ate 5 of them right off the bat and then clambered onto my hand as if to say thank you. She sat there for a while, under her light and would NOT want to leave my hand. Now, being as late as it is, she is sleeping soundly. Her tummy actually looks slightly full, and her eyes looked somewhat happier.

As far as I can tell at the moment, she has no illnesses, but I will still be doing a fecal test asap. Her eyes are slightly sunken from partial dehydration (She did drink some after the flies) and simply seems to be suffering from starvation. I will post some pictures of her tomorrow, if she'll let me. So far though, so good! I just hope she doesn't fall over tonight or something! My husband has already fallen in love with her and claimed her as his own. :)

I will make regular visits to the pet store to see if they get any more young ones, and will hopefully make a difference there. They seem to be willing to learn! But I suppose this is what happens when people breed their chameleons and don't even want or know what to do with the babies. I suppose I can't fully hold the store responsible... or can I? Either way, I hope we'll make a difference for this little chameleon and we'll make sure they don't have an episode like this again :D
 
Cool. Glad to see you've thought things through and that the store was at least understanding and open to ideas. Good luck with the little guy!
 
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