Could i get some help again, Coccidia
- Thread starter Mayybbee
- Start date
I am going to be extremely honest with you... A chameleon with coccidia is one of the hardest things a new keeper can take on. You say he is wild caught but you also said the breeder is giving you feedback. These are two different things. You can have captive hatched which means that a person took in a pregnant female that laid fertile eggs. But if he is wild caught then the person that sold him to you is not his breeder.
I do not know when you got him but I would suggest you ask to return him to the "breeder".
The treatment, cleaning and impact coccidia takes on the human keeper is pretty intense. I had this happen to me when I was only in the hobby for 9 months with the second chameleon I bought. Within days of me having him he went downhill.
The fact that the cage still has all the plants and original items means he has an extremely high re contamination chance. Which means you will be starting over from scratch with treatment.
If you are fogging non stop at night then he is not dehydrated (make sure night temps are below 67 or you will have RI risk). Also the urate does not indicate dehydration. He shows no signs at all of being underweight as of right now. So I would not force feed. He is going to go through periods of not wanting to eat. Keep offering him food and see if he takes it. Do not free feed and do not put insects on any surface of the cage where there could be fecal matter. Do not over mist during the day. Hot moist air is not good for them and can start a respiratory infection. You can add a dripper to the cage during the day and it will not increase ambient levels.
Is he up and moving around during the day? When you say sleeping at 3pm. Do you mean tucked into a spot or fully sleeping eyes closed? What time do you have lighting coming on and turning off?
Do not increase your UVB strength you need a 5.0 and a distance of 8-9 inches to the basking branch from the screen where the fixture sits. This puts them in the correct UVI level. Do not change bulb wattages unless your temps are off. you want a basking temp of 80-85 max.
I do not know when you got him but I would suggest you ask to return him to the "breeder".
The treatment, cleaning and impact coccidia takes on the human keeper is pretty intense. I had this happen to me when I was only in the hobby for 9 months with the second chameleon I bought. Within days of me having him he went downhill.
The fact that the cage still has all the plants and original items means he has an extremely high re contamination chance. Which means you will be starting over from scratch with treatment.
If you are fogging non stop at night then he is not dehydrated (make sure night temps are below 67 or you will have RI risk). Also the urate does not indicate dehydration. He shows no signs at all of being underweight as of right now. So I would not force feed. He is going to go through periods of not wanting to eat. Keep offering him food and see if he takes it. Do not free feed and do not put insects on any surface of the cage where there could be fecal matter. Do not over mist during the day. Hot moist air is not good for them and can start a respiratory infection. You can add a dripper to the cage during the day and it will not increase ambient levels.
Is he up and moving around during the day? When you say sleeping at 3pm. Do you mean tucked into a spot or fully sleeping eyes closed? What time do you have lighting coming on and turning off?
Do not increase your UVB strength you need a 5.0 and a distance of 8-9 inches to the basking branch from the screen where the fixture sits. This puts them in the correct UVI level. Do not change bulb wattages unless your temps are off. you want a basking temp of 80-85 max.
Let me correct myself, He is a breeder/importer and He confirmed this was a wild caught chameleon as most of his are.
That is a brand new cage that i just bought with new sticks and plants after all the advice i got from here. But i will keep in mind to keep cleaning it when i can to avoid recontamination.
Temps at night are fairly low, low 60’s. and as for the day misting, when i look at the hygrometer and see its 40-30% and dropping, what do i do? Even with my dripper, the humidity wont stay set and im not sure how else to keep it up other than to buy more plants and even still i feel like it will drop. Keeping in mind im in Ontario Canada not very humid atm.
I have the timer turn the lights on and off at 7 so when i see him. He is usually basking in one spot for most the day, might move to some plants for coverage, but then i will find him later with one or both eyes closed. I wouldn’t say he is sleeping like he is at night (hard to wake him) i think hes like napping rather, but you get the idea and I usually starting seeing the eyes closed starting around 3pm.
My uvb used to be 10.0 I switched to a 5.0 yesterday. And the basking bulb was a 50W halogen bulb, the guy i got him from suggested switching to a incandescent bulb since a halogen can get too hot. I got the halogen as recommended through neptune the chameleons youtube channel. With the halogen it was about 80-85F. 88F max, and with the incandescent its about the same with a slightly different height from the cage. Any recommendations?
That is a brand new cage that i just bought with new sticks and plants after all the advice i got from here. But i will keep in mind to keep cleaning it when i can to avoid recontamination.
Temps at night are fairly low, low 60’s. and as for the day misting, when i look at the hygrometer and see its 40-30% and dropping, what do i do? Even with my dripper, the humidity wont stay set and im not sure how else to keep it up other than to buy more plants and even still i feel like it will drop. Keeping in mind im in Ontario Canada not very humid atm.
I have the timer turn the lights on and off at 7 so when i see him. He is usually basking in one spot for most the day, might move to some plants for coverage, but then i will find him later with one or both eyes closed. I wouldn’t say he is sleeping like he is at night (hard to wake him) i think hes like napping rather, but you get the idea and I usually starting seeing the eyes closed starting around 3pm.
My uvb used to be 10.0 I switched to a 5.0 yesterday. And the basking bulb was a 50W halogen bulb, the guy i got him from suggested switching to a incandescent bulb since a halogen can get too hot. I got the halogen as recommended through neptune the chameleons youtube channel. With the halogen it was about 80-85F. 88F max, and with the incandescent its about the same with a slightly different height from the cage. Any recommendations?
IrohtheVeiled
Established Member
I’m just being straight with you, you were given advice and you’re not listening to it. If you’re not willing to quarantine your Cham he’s not going to be able to clear the parasite. All the wood is porous. All the plants are porous. They all harbor the thing your Cham is sick with.
Being blunt about it, if you don’t quarantine your Cham there’s a good chance he’ll decomp and maybe die. Here’s what my Cham looked like in quarantine for coccidia. Did I like having him in this stripped down cage? Absolutely not. But hey he’s parasite free now. Why? Because I followed the treatment recommendations offered to me.
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IrohtheVeiled
Established Member
No where did i express that I was unwilling to quarantine my chameleon. In fact, I expressed in one of my forums that I didn’t know i need to quarantine and that i would be working towards getting another cage for that. This is literally a brand new cage with all new materials.
I only had that one cage for the time being and I just got and built this the other day and im currently deconstructing the other cage to rebuild to be for quarantine.
i understand this one looks similar to the previous, but jumping the gun like that was completely unnecessary. But thank you for the advice.
The other person is someone I helped get through coccidia with their chameleon. They are being extremely blunt and honest with you. Without the proper quarantine method you will not get him through this. Coccidia does take them down. While most chams can survive it when done properly... wild caughts can succumb to it because they typically have a more compromised immune system then a baby that is raised in captivity and manages to get it. Also you are dealing with a chameleon that is not from a caged environment so their stressors are going to be much higher.
So if the image of the cage you just posted with all the plants is the quarantine cage you bought then this is not a quarantine cage. Quarantine cages are bare... Literally nothing porous. Porous items include wood sticks and plants that can not be cleaned with coccidia. So we remove all porous items. It is by no means fun. It is extremely stressful not only for the chameleon but the keeper. But without having a bare cage it is almost certain the chameleon will lick a surface that is contaminated. The eggs (oocysts) of the parasite come out in the fecal matter. So say he is on the top level of the cage when he passes the fecal. Every surface below it now has the potential for oocysts to be on the surface. Then you mist the cage and this spreads them more. He finds a plant or branch surface to lick the contaminated water off of and the parasite cycle starts over again. So I want to be very clear that you more then likely will have a re contamination issue because the cage was not stripped down when you first were told it needed to be. I do not want you to be taken off guard if a fecal test comes back positive.
Using vines like the flukers vines are better than the wood branches during this period. You can actually wipe these vines down when you clean and spot clean daily to remove fecal.
Once through the medicating phase you need to have a 6-8 week period at least after the last dose. You should get 2-3 fecal tests within this period to ensure the parasite is gone and he is not testing a false negative. Parasites shed the oocysts in cycles so they will not show up on every fecal.
Coccidia oocysts do not die off with soap and water not even bleach will kill them. They can stay viable for years if you do not clean properly. Cleaning for this parasite involves using 40 volume liquid peroxide. Like the type they sell at the beauty supply store. buy a spray bottle as well for this that is only used for this and can be throw away after the negative fecal tests. You have to strip the cage. All porous things get thrown away. You take the cage and wash the heck out of it in a tub or outside in your yard. hot soapy water. Rinse let air dry. Then with the peroxide you will spray every single surface of the cage so that it is dripping wet and you want this to sit wet on it for 20 minutes. So if it starts drying spray more. If doing this inside make sure your bathroom is ventilated with a window. Make sure the chameleon is no where near this air it will damage his lungs. Where eye protection while you do this and gloves. This stuff is extremely strong and will burn your skin. After the 20 minutes you will then rinse the cage extremely well. You need to get all surfaces rinsed. Then let it air dry. Ideally you will do this process weekly and while you do it put him in a dark box to sleep. This will be the least stressful for him. You will spot clean in between. hot soapy water on paper towels wiping fecal matter from the surface and floor of the cage. With a bare cage this makes the process much easier to ensure a low chance of re contamination.
They will stop eating during this period. This is not at all uncommon. With a cham that is not under weight going a week or even two without food is not going to kill them. For an underweight chameleon this can be extremely dangerous. Your male is showing plenty of fat storage in his casque he is not underweight. There may be days when he only takes one insect. Try to hand feed or cup feed where you hold the cup up to him to eat out of. This removes the risk of contamination from eating out of a feeder run or cup attached in the cage.
Best bet for holding humidity is going to be buying duct window film. Place on the two sides and back first. Please keep in mind you will need to remove this every time you do a deep clean on the cage with the info I gave you above. See how your levels are with this outside panels covered. Make sure you are using a good guage to determine real levels. Govee makes one you can zip tie to the screen just do not get it wet. Works with an app. Will give you ambient temp and humidity.
For the UVB measure from the screen down to your highest branch. With a 5.0 T5HO bulb you need a distance right below that fixture of 8-9 inches for the vine. That puts them in a 3 uvi which is the correct UVB level. If your distance is closer drop the vine down, if your distance is higher then you much raise the vine up.
Temps you have to be in a 80-85 basking temp. Use a temp guage with a probe sit the probe on the branch below the heat. Let it sit there a good 5 minutes or so then check and see what the branch temp is. You do not want anything hotter than 82 at the branch or where the cham rises up he could be in a 87-90 range which is too hot. Hallogen or incandecent bulb... Does not matter as long as the temp is spot on.
Lights on 11-12 hours during the day. Not uncommon for them to bed down a few hours early. If they are sleeping or closing eyes during the day this is a major sign of their body shutting down. But if they are simply going to a sleeping spot a few hours early and resting then this is not abnormal.
If you are new to keeping chameleon this is going to be a lot to take on. They are not easy animals to care for let alone adding a health issue into the mix. This just compounds everything. I have now given you every single piece of advice I can on how to get through this. Please do not take our being blunt for rudeness. This is not a simple issue to fix and every single day that it is not dealt with correctly compromises the chameleon. I will speak for myself and say that over the years I have found that when I sugar coat feedback people do not seem to understand the gravity of the situation they are dealing with. They pick and choose what they want to take from the feedback. In almost all health situations this leads to a very poor outcome for the chameleon and the keeper.
So if the image of the cage you just posted with all the plants is the quarantine cage you bought then this is not a quarantine cage. Quarantine cages are bare... Literally nothing porous. Porous items include wood sticks and plants that can not be cleaned with coccidia. So we remove all porous items. It is by no means fun. It is extremely stressful not only for the chameleon but the keeper. But without having a bare cage it is almost certain the chameleon will lick a surface that is contaminated. The eggs (oocysts) of the parasite come out in the fecal matter. So say he is on the top level of the cage when he passes the fecal. Every surface below it now has the potential for oocysts to be on the surface. Then you mist the cage and this spreads them more. He finds a plant or branch surface to lick the contaminated water off of and the parasite cycle starts over again. So I want to be very clear that you more then likely will have a re contamination issue because the cage was not stripped down when you first were told it needed to be. I do not want you to be taken off guard if a fecal test comes back positive.
Using vines like the flukers vines are better than the wood branches during this period. You can actually wipe these vines down when you clean and spot clean daily to remove fecal.
Once through the medicating phase you need to have a 6-8 week period at least after the last dose. You should get 2-3 fecal tests within this period to ensure the parasite is gone and he is not testing a false negative. Parasites shed the oocysts in cycles so they will not show up on every fecal.
Coccidia oocysts do not die off with soap and water not even bleach will kill them. They can stay viable for years if you do not clean properly. Cleaning for this parasite involves using 40 volume liquid peroxide. Like the type they sell at the beauty supply store. buy a spray bottle as well for this that is only used for this and can be throw away after the negative fecal tests. You have to strip the cage. All porous things get thrown away. You take the cage and wash the heck out of it in a tub or outside in your yard. hot soapy water. Rinse let air dry. Then with the peroxide you will spray every single surface of the cage so that it is dripping wet and you want this to sit wet on it for 20 minutes. So if it starts drying spray more. If doing this inside make sure your bathroom is ventilated with a window. Make sure the chameleon is no where near this air it will damage his lungs. Where eye protection while you do this and gloves. This stuff is extremely strong and will burn your skin. After the 20 minutes you will then rinse the cage extremely well. You need to get all surfaces rinsed. Then let it air dry. Ideally you will do this process weekly and while you do it put him in a dark box to sleep. This will be the least stressful for him. You will spot clean in between. hot soapy water on paper towels wiping fecal matter from the surface and floor of the cage. With a bare cage this makes the process much easier to ensure a low chance of re contamination.
They will stop eating during this period. This is not at all uncommon. With a cham that is not under weight going a week or even two without food is not going to kill them. For an underweight chameleon this can be extremely dangerous. Your male is showing plenty of fat storage in his casque he is not underweight. There may be days when he only takes one insect. Try to hand feed or cup feed where you hold the cup up to him to eat out of. This removes the risk of contamination from eating out of a feeder run or cup attached in the cage.
Best bet for holding humidity is going to be buying duct window film. Place on the two sides and back first. Please keep in mind you will need to remove this every time you do a deep clean on the cage with the info I gave you above. See how your levels are with this outside panels covered. Make sure you are using a good guage to determine real levels. Govee makes one you can zip tie to the screen just do not get it wet. Works with an app. Will give you ambient temp and humidity.
For the UVB measure from the screen down to your highest branch. With a 5.0 T5HO bulb you need a distance right below that fixture of 8-9 inches for the vine. That puts them in a 3 uvi which is the correct UVB level. If your distance is closer drop the vine down, if your distance is higher then you much raise the vine up.
Temps you have to be in a 80-85 basking temp. Use a temp guage with a probe sit the probe on the branch below the heat. Let it sit there a good 5 minutes or so then check and see what the branch temp is. You do not want anything hotter than 82 at the branch or where the cham rises up he could be in a 87-90 range which is too hot. Hallogen or incandecent bulb... Does not matter as long as the temp is spot on.
Lights on 11-12 hours during the day. Not uncommon for them to bed down a few hours early. If they are sleeping or closing eyes during the day this is a major sign of their body shutting down. But if they are simply going to a sleeping spot a few hours early and resting then this is not abnormal.
If you are new to keeping chameleon this is going to be a lot to take on. They are not easy animals to care for let alone adding a health issue into the mix. This just compounds everything. I have now given you every single piece of advice I can on how to get through this. Please do not take our being blunt for rudeness. This is not a simple issue to fix and every single day that it is not dealt with correctly compromises the chameleon. I will speak for myself and say that over the years I have found that when I sugar coat feedback people do not seem to understand the gravity of the situation they are dealing with. They pick and choose what they want to take from the feedback. In almost all health situations this leads to a very poor outcome for the chameleon and the keeper.
I understand that person was trying to be helpful and I appreciate the advice. I really do, but what I think you are both not understanding is that I am in the midst of making and getting a quarantine cage. These cages are not cheap and I only had the one for the time being.
The most recent cage you see will be his home. The old cage that I posted before I am deconstructing to remake into his quarantine home.
I understand you’re all concerned about there being many branches and many plants but again this is for his permanent home after he is quarantined.. I couldn’t just hold him out in the open while I deconstructed the old cage and cleaned all the stuff. I needed a new one to put him while i worked on the other, this is temporary and will be cleaned again.
And again I understand you have to be blunt in these times, it was the underlaying condescending tone and assumptions I didn’t appreciate. You all saw that picture and assumed i ignored the advice about quarantine.
I digress, there was a misunderstanding and hopefully we can look past this. Thank you for the help everyone, i will be finishing his quarantine cage today and post updates
The most recent cage you see will be his home. The old cage that I posted before I am deconstructing to remake into his quarantine home.
I understand you’re all concerned about there being many branches and many plants but again this is for his permanent home after he is quarantined.. I couldn’t just hold him out in the open while I deconstructed the old cage and cleaned all the stuff. I needed a new one to put him while i worked on the other, this is temporary and will be cleaned again.
And again I understand you have to be blunt in these times, it was the underlaying condescending tone and assumptions I didn’t appreciate. You all saw that picture and assumed i ignored the advice about quarantine.
I digress, there was a misunderstanding and hopefully we can look past this. Thank you for the help everyone, i will be finishing his quarantine cage today and post updates
No, I wanted to make sure you understood that you contaminated your new cage and all of the plants in it by putting him into that one. So now to be safe everything in that cage that is porous meaning branches and plants should be thrown away and not reused.
I wish you the best in your journey as I have been there and understand the complexities. But if you feel that I am being condescending then I will go ahead and leave your thread.
No not you, the person before you came across condescending with how they were stating “ i am not willing to quarantine” I fully understand things in this cage cannot be used after he is put in the quarantine cage.
I just felt that person was being very passive aggressive when i clearly am new to all of this. I obviously understand the gravity of the situation and im doing my best to treat it with all the advice im getting and i just didnt appreciate the aggression that came with it, im already stressed and I didnt need to feel worse..
I just felt that person was being very passive aggressive when i clearly am new to all of this. I obviously understand the gravity of the situation and im doing my best to treat it with all the advice im getting and i just didnt appreciate the aggression that came with it, im already stressed and I didnt need to feel worse..
Once you make it through this I think you will understand why they spoke as bluntly as they did. It is an extremely hard thing to deal with and for most that go through it your looking at 3 months minimum of total chaos, cleaning, and stress. And that is only if they pop all negative tests after the initial medication period. If they do not then the process starts all over again. And this parasite is the hardest to get rid of so for some they deal with this cycle again.
No one here will purposefully make you feel worse. This is not how this forum works and rudeness is not tolerated by the moderators here. We give perhaps far too much information sometimes but that is because there is not a heart breaking story that we have not read about or tried to help with. Please understand any feedback you get is out of kindness from those sharing their experience so that perhaps you do not have a hard experience like them. Mine was not easy at all and is why I tend to be the one consistently helping in coccidia threads.
Take the feedback bit by bit. Read through it. When questions come up ask them. If your confused get clarification. We all will do our best to help.
IrohtheVeiled
Established Member
I only speak bluntly because my Cham had to go through two rounds of meds to clear the parasite, and that meant him being quarantined between 06-24 and 12-24 because he needed multiple rounds of medication and fecal tests. The fecal tests at 60 bucks a pop cost me a few hundred bucks, the meds cost me like 100 at a compounding veterinary pharmacy, and all the cleaning involved was super time consuming.
The process involved a lot of uncertainty of what the outcome would be, a fair amount of worry for the wellbeing of my Cham, and a few gray hairs. You’re dealing with a parasite that’s considered a nightmare for reptile keepers, so I’m not going to mince words, it’s gonna suck I’m just warning you ahead of time. It’s a whole ordeal to address coccidia. It’s not passive aggressive towards you, I’m just speaking plainly and forewarning you that you’re in for an extended commitment of trying to treat this.
The process involved a lot of uncertainty of what the outcome would be, a fair amount of worry for the wellbeing of my Cham, and a few gray hairs. You’re dealing with a parasite that’s considered a nightmare for reptile keepers, so I’m not going to mince words, it’s gonna suck I’m just warning you ahead of time. It’s a whole ordeal to address coccidia. It’s not passive aggressive towards you, I’m just speaking plainly and forewarning you that you’re in for an extended commitment of trying to treat this.
