D3 through the diet only?

[Mike Fisher]

actually this is an interesting thing, I know Bjorn tuvesson here in sweden changed uv light tubes for d3 supplementation for his panther chameleons, and many of the chronic diseases they got from time to time disappeared, I wonder if somehow this could apply to other species as well.

Are you saying he stopped using UVB bulbs and used supplements instead?

 

[Mike Fisher]

So your going to get organic foods to feed your bugs then cover them in a bunch of man made supplements that most aren't even formulated for chameleons? I just don't understand why introduce even more to not use a UV light. Mike I'm sorry if that was misunderstood.

All the ingredients I use are organic. And I do formulate them specifically for the montane chameleons I breed.

Let me explain something that we are doing as a collective in the standard way we normally supplement. When we use a multivitamin or D3 powder infrequently, we are spiking the dose all at once. In many cases, but especially with montane species, they have a reaction to this which presents itself as edema. Then, we as keepers say, "These montanes are sure sensitive to D3, or vitamin A" or whatever it was we gave them. Then we cut way back which give them a deficiency that will eventually show symptoms.

Here's my way: Since we are dusting most feeders daily with calcium to correct the calcium phosphorus imbalance, I add a very low background dose of organic multivitamins and D3 to the calcium. That way they have a consistent low dosing level at every feeding.

 

[Lazy Boy]

All the ingredients I use are organic. And I do formulate them specifically for the montane chameleons I breed.

Let me explain something that we are doing as a collective in the standard way we normally supplement. When we use a multivitamin or D3 powder infrequently, we are spiking the dose all at once. In many cases, but especially with montane species, they have a reaction to this which presents itself as edema. Then, we as keepers say, "These montanes are sure sensitive to D3, or vitamin A" or whatever it was we gave them. Then we cut way back which give them a deficiency that will eventually show symptoms.

Here's my way: Since we are dusting most feeders daily with calcium to correct the calcium phosphorus imbalance, I add a very low background dose of organic multivitamins and D3 to the calcium. That way they have a consistent low dosing level at every feeding.

This I understand, like using a custom calcium + LoD but the saving I don't see. If you don't run lights at all OK but that I doubt. Using UV bulbs take no more wattage then a 6500k bulb. So if you are using lights then where's the saving? Mind if I ask what kind of light you use? Do you just use a basking bulb?

 

[Lazy Boy]

OK let's talk about savings running a light. 24" reptisun burns 17w so let's say 20w. 20w x 12hr a day = 240 watts or .24 kilowatts a day. .24 x 365 days a year = 87.6 kilowatts a year. 87.6 x .12¢(national average per kilowatt) brings us to $10.51 per year per fixture. Going to take a lot of lights to save those thousands of dollars. Even at 10 lights we are talking about $105 a YEAR.

 

[Mike Fisher]

OK let's talk about savings running a light. 24" reptisun burns 17w so let's say 20w. 20w x 12hr a day = 240 watts or .24 kilowatts a day. .24 x 365 days a year = 87.6 kilowatts a year. 87.6 x .12¢(national average per kilowatt) brings us to $10.51 per year per fixture. Going to take a lot of lights to save those thousands of dollars. Even at 10 lights we are talking about $105 a YEAR.

I'm not talking about electricity costs, those will be fixed based on the bulb wattage.

Cost of bulbs. The difference being between standard 6500K bought in bulk vs. Arcadias @ ~$50 a pop.

And yes, I have a lot of fixtures and enclosures. Currently have 30 enclosures going, but by end of year should be over 100. The difference in cost between 6500K bulbs and Arcadias would be many thousands of dollars a year and if I changed them out twice yearly, that number would be around 5K per year.

 

[Lazy Boy]

I'm not talking about electricity costs, those will be fixed based on the bulb wattage.

Cost of bulbs. The difference being between standard 6500K bought in bulk vs. Arcadias @ ~$50 a pop.

And yes, I have a lot of fixtures and enclosures. Currently have 30 enclosures going, but by end of year should be over 100. The difference in cost between 6500K bulbs and Arcadias would be many thousands of dollars a year and if I changed them out twice yearly, that number would be around 5K per year.

OK so it is a price thing. I'm just wondering why someone would not offer it and that's what my first post was about. I'm really surprised a lot of breeders don't use green houses more.

 

[Mike Fisher]

I'm really surprised a lot of breeders don't use green houses more.

In my case, most of the species I keep would overheat in the summer. I keep them in the high 60's low 70's in the summer ambient.

 

[leedragon]

Are you saying he stopped using UVB bulbs and used supplements instead?

yes, he first used 50IE/100 g and then increased 200IE D3, after that he only used D3 a no any uv for a year, and the last group he used this method in was the animals he would latle sell in Hamm show, which was about between 200-400 animals.
but he did use an specific formula of D3 which is meant for pigeons.

he didn't see any D3 poisoned animals and he saw the animals to become more active and healthier
http://www.calcanit.de/

 

[Mike Fisher]

yes, he first used 50IE/100 g and then increased 200IE D3, after that he only used D3 a no any uv for a year, and the last group he used this method in was the animals he would latle sell in Hamm show, which was about between 200-400 animals.
but he did use an specific formula of D3 which is meant for pigeons.

he didn't see any D3 poisoned animals and he saw the animals to become more active and healthier
http://www.calcanit.de/

Good to know. Most breeders will not admit to it or share when they do something totally different than the norm. Nice to hear I'm not the only one doing it this way.

I'm a cost vs. benefit type of person. If I only had a few enclosures or if I had a bunch of extra money lying around, I'd buy the expensive bulbs.

While my breeding is a hobby, it is also a business. A successful business owner has to budget carefully to stay in business. I don't think my animals are suffering the consequences for it either. I regularly have indoor mating of some of the more "difficult to keep" species in my collection and they seem healthy and well adjusted aside from those fresh WC's that would love to kill me.

 

[leedragon]

Good to know. Most breeders will not admit to it or share when they do something totally different than the norm. Nice to hear I'm not the only one doing it this way.

I'm a cost vs. benefit type of person. If I only had a few enclosures or if I had a bunch of extra money lying around, I'd buy the expensive bulbs.

While my breeding is a hobby, it is also a business. A successful business owner has to budget carefully to stay in business. I don't think my animals are suffering the consequences for it either. I regularly have indoor mating of some of the more "difficult to keep" species in my collection and they seem healthy and well adjusted aside from those fresh WC's that would love to kill me.

well wouldn't really know I´m half retired, I don´t own any chams anymore so my hobby now is the knowledge of this animals but it would be nice if people saw this more like a hobby and no as a business you know when it is a business is can become kinda more worry more about making money of the animals and no worry about the animal it self or where the babies end up as long as people pay for them, I am not saying you do this but the thing is, with all the chams that are imported and all the youngs that are breeded, the amount of chams that are out there is too damm low, the math doesn't add up if you understand how I mean, too many animals goes to waste

 

[Mike Fisher]

it would be nice if people saw this more like a hobby and no as a business you know when it is a business is can become kinda more worry more about making money of the animals and no worry about the animal it self or where the babies end up as long as people pay for them,

I don't use it to make a living, I have other businesses for that. Anyone who has a profit or loss and does not claim a hobby based business in order to subtract their expenses from their profit is not making a wise choice. I choose not to donate money to my government when the law allows.

The only way to slow or stop collecting of WC species is to produce them in large enough numbers via breeding businesses. These businesses have already virtually stopped all importation of calyptratus to the US and also have helped take the pressure off of pardalis to some extent.

If it were only a hobby and no money could be involved, most keepers would just have a few animals and would drop out after a few years. Hobbies are fleeting, most people move on to another hobby without the incentive to at least break even on feeders and supplies.

My other businesses are hobby based, and the turnover is huge. I can count the people still involved from ten years ago on one hand. Just look back a few years ago on this forum and see all of the users that are not here anymore. Who stays? The people that operate businesses to support the hobby.

Basically what it boils down to is if you are taking a loss and not claiming loss from a hobby business, you are not the sharpest tool in the shed. But if you are producing offspring and selling them at a profit and not claiming that profit, you are breaking the law. I don't choose to do either one, therefore I keep good books and run it as a business.

 

[SMCNARY]

Very well stated sir! I could not agree more.

 

[Devokid]

actually this is an interesting thing, I know Bjorn tuvesson here in sweden changed uv light tubes for d3 supplementation for his panther chameleons, and many of the chronic diseases they got from time to time disappeared, I wonder if somehow this could apply to other species as well.

This is interesting. I know Mike Fisher works primarily with montane species that do not spend a lot of time out in the sun in general, so I was curious as to how it would work with the more sun-loving species.

 

[Devokid]

All the ingredients I use are organic. And I do formulate them specifically for the montane chameleons I breed.

Let me explain something that we are doing as a collective in the standard way we normally supplement. When we use a multivitamin or D3 powder infrequently, we are spiking the dose all at once. In many cases, but especially with montane species, they have a reaction to this which presents itself as edema. Then, we as keepers say, "These montanes are sure sensitive to D3, or vitamin A" or whatever it was we gave them. Then we cut way back which give them a deficiency that will eventually show symptoms.

Here's my way: Since we are dusting most feeders daily with calcium to correct the calcium phosphorus imbalance, I add a very low background dose of organic multivitamins and D3 to the calcium. That way they have a consistent low dosing level at every feeding.

I have been doing something similar to this for years as well, although my guys still see the sun and UVB in the winter. My primary reason was laziness, because I didn't want to have all these different bags of different powders and trying to remember what powder I dusted with when. Instead, I have been mixing the proportionate amount of multi vit, calc with D3, and plain calc into one super powder. It has worked well for me with no problems.

 

[Mike Fisher]

This is interesting. I know Mike Fisher works primarily with montane species that do not spend a lot of time out in the sun in general, so I was curious as to how it would work with the more sun-loving species.

Just the same only with higher IU/kg of D3. I used to breed veiled and panthers the same way. I was one of the first large breeders of veiled in the USA.

 

[kinyonga]

Mike...Did your breeding business have a name?

I'm not a breeder although I do breed chameleons and other reptiles from time to time. I have been in the "hobby" for over 25 years...just enjoy studying the reptiles and learning more about them....guess I'm one of those not too sharp tools in the shed.

 

[Mike Fisher]

Mike...Did your breeding business have a name?

Mike Fisher Reptiles. I primarily sold wholesale lots to Petsmart, Petco, and a bunch of smaller chains. Later I invented a line of caging and misting systems and did the expo circuit.

I advocate anyone who breeds reptiles and sells offspring to do themselves a favor and keep good books so when tax time comes you can write off your expenses and declare profits (if any).

Some years you might save money on taxes, and some you might pay. But if you don't keep track, uncle sam (or your country's tax authority) might on your behalf.

 

[kinyonga]

Just wondered if anyone I dealt with bought from you....but I don't recall your name coming up. Never bought from Petsmart or Petco. I bought at shows and pet stores, etc. from people I knew well. In the beginning everything I bought was wc since there were no breeders up here in Canada.

I did quite a bit of work with the zoo and the vet's in the beginning to improve the husbandry and knowledge of chameleons, etc...and as a consultant on a veiled reproduction study.

As far as hatchlings, I kept a lot to carry on my lines and gave away quite a few of them too. I particularly liked giving them to vet's who then got first hand experience on how to keep them alive.

 

[Mike Fisher]

Just wondered if anyone I dealt with bought from you....

Probably not directly but I was up to 3K veileds a year when I burnt out.

 

[kinyonga]

Leedragon...do you know Bjorn Tuvesson?
He used to post on a forum I was on a long time ago and was working with pardalis and starting into parsons at that time. I think Kevin Becker was working with him on the parsons project.