Did I get sold a fake veiled?

[Orin]

I picked up this male (said to be six months old) at a show last month. I got him only for the purpose of avoiding inbreeding. I did notice he was really ugly for this species but now I'm wondering if he's the 'desert species/subspecies' since his coloration is nothing like any veiled I've ever seen. His pattern looks more like a veiled with this flash photograph than in real life (he is molting here too). Any experts on calyptratus relatives??

 

[Orin]

photo

I tried to attach the photo after the fact and am getting error messages. Trying again.


https://www.chameleonforums.com/gallery/showimage.php?i=3212&c=3
I couldn't get it to attach so I loaded it in the gallery.

One thing that makes me wonder beyond the lack of normal coloration is a while back I saw the same vendor selling babies of the 'desert' variety.

 

[stevereecy]

Looks like...

Looks like a veiled to me. A dark orange phase one that gets fed often. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder...I like the color.

Steve

 

[bg77]

Looks like one to me.

 

[dectr6]

Doesn't look ugly to me!! Have never heard of a desert sub species veiled. Put a mirror in front of him and I bet he will fire up awesome. Looks very healthy other than a little overweight. David

 

[Fate X]

the veiled dont look so ugly

 

[Canopy Chameleons]

That's for sure a Veiled, very interesting color as well. I quite like him!

 

[Brad Ramsey]

Interesting question Orin, and rather difficult to answer.
Here's the problem (in my opinion) :
In the same wadis of Yemen where Chamaeleo calyptratus is found, one can also find Chamaeleo arabicus. C. arabicus is a species that is known to be able to breed with C. calyptratus, producing the hybrid Chamaeleo calyptratus calcarifer.
This has been done successfully in captivity, and due to the two species proximity to one another in their native habitat....we can only assume it happens naturally as well.
So there may be a bit of "fake veiled" blood running through many of our animals. This would explain things like a smaller casque in a captive male veiled for instance.

-Brad

 

[Chameleons Northwest]

Greetings, and congratulations on your purchase. We also own a veiled with that coloration, turquoise and golden brown. But yours has a much better pattern, with unbroken bars and a well-balanced body. Ours turns brilliant turquoise, yellow, and golden brown when excited. The yellow is in the vertical bars. It is very beautiful. I don't know enough about the species to know how the different colorations morphed or developed in the veileds. But it does seem these turquoise and golden brown veileds are rarer than the green-on-green.

Brad wrote at the same time I did. So now we know more about these different colorations. I am glad you asked this question, because otherwise I would never have known about the origin of the hybrid.

Here is an article about them:
http://www.skypoint.com/members/mikefry/calyp.html

 

[dodolah]

Interesting question Orin, and rather difficult to answer.
Here's the problem (in my opinion) :
In the same wadis of Yemen where Chamaeleo calyptratus is found, one can also find Chamaeleo arabicus. C. arabicus is a species that is known to be able to breed with C. calyptratus, producing the hybrid Chamaeleo calyptratus calcarifer.
This has been done successfully in captivity, and due to the two species proximity to one another in their native habitat....we can only assume it happens naturally as well.
So there may be a bit of "fake veiled" blood running through many of our animals. This would explain things like a smaller casque in a captive male veiled for instance.

-Brad

Your veiled doesn't look fake to me.

Do you guys have comparison pics between calyptratus, arabicus, and the calcarifer?
how can you tell which is which?

 

[PardalisGirl]

Nice looking boy

I think he is quite a nice looking male....I think you will find that he will turn other colors as well. He does have a nice overall pattern. His coloration may be subtle and stable because lives a nice calm life with you. Others who have responded are much more informed regarding the status of this species in the wild. All I know is that I don't consider him to be ugly at all!

 

[Brad Ramsey]

Here is a picture of the Arabian Chameleon (Chamaeleo Arabica):

http://www.nephrurus.org/Reiseberichte/tier_oman_chamaeleo.htm

I'm having a bit of trouble finding any images of the hybrid (Chamaeleo calyptratus calcarifer) going to check some books though and perhaps I can scan one.

-Brad

 

[Brad Ramsey]

Okay, here's a scan of pages 78 and 79 from Philippe de Vosjoli's book "Care and Breeding of Chameleons" which shows a photo of C. calyptratus calcarifer and drawings comparing casque size between the hybrid and C. calyptratus.

-Brad

 

[Jeweledchameleons]

Easiest way is the size of their casques
the f1 hybrids have *smaller* casques
they also tend to be larger in size
and show "hybrid robustness".

There's another thread regarding the term "designer chameleons"
where I quote a text on how the hybrids we're believed to be all one species
imported and "contaminated" many domestic populations of captive bred animals.
Brad is correct... many of our veilds have more than a tinge of hybrid blood
flowing through their veins.

 

[Kent67]

I'm curious if anyone knows for a fact that Saudi veileds have been imported to the US. The pictures of wild veileds that I've seen in Yemen seem to be quite variable in casque size, body build, and color. Overall they look pretty similar to what we have in US collections. A lot of the literature states that the hybrid form is from Saudi Arabia, while the nominate is from Yemen.

 

[Brad Ramsey]

I have read that as well...but... I recently read a paper from a 1985 expedition in Yemen where Ch calyptratus and Ch. arabica were documented to be residing in the same wadis there.

-Brad

 

[davemailcall]

Thats the most unique color patter I've ever seen! But yeah, he's a veiled.

 

[dectr6]

The more I look at your chameleon the more jealous I get! Have you snuck up on him at night when he's sleeping? I bet he really looks great when he's completly relaxed.All the poka dots in his bars are very unusual. He's going to be a stunner. If you run into this guy again and he's trying to rip other people off with these "ugly" veileds, give him my number. LOL. David

 

[dectr6]

If you have a chance to get a picture when he's sleeping or when he see's himself in a mirror, could you post them? I'm not kidding, I think this guy is beautiful. David

 

[Kent67]

I have read that as well...but... I recently read a paper from a 1985 expedition in Yemen where Ch calyptratus and Ch. arabica were documented to be residing in the same wadis there.

-Brad

Is that in Lahij (or Lahej)? I was looking at a paper from a trip in Feb and Sept/Oct 2001 and none were found apparently. The author says the only mention of Ch. arabicus he's found in the books is in Lahij which is down just a little north of Aden.