Do you believe in evolution?

Cant quite fathom why the creationist part get hung up on the idea of 'macroevolution' (original single cell organism in chemical soup, spawing all known creatures), simply because
its difficult to grasp the exponential adaptions and vast numbers of split lines of direction of evolution on such a vast scale of time.
In fairness the fossil record is like a million piece puzzel with only 965 pieces found so far,
but for example, lizard, to legless lizard, to snake, is surely not too great a leap of faith.
I think many conceive of macro evolution as though a mouse, grew, lost its fur, lost its tail, developed tusk and became an elephant! Or fish grew feathered wings, leapt from the water and became a bird directly.
Such obvious misconceptions will naturally have them asking where is half fish, half bird. It simply didnt work like that, clearly. Even scientist are not that stupid. :D
The overall theory needs to be better explained and illustrated I think.
Is faith for the sake of it, really just self justified arrogance, an easy way out of a frustrating and unanswerable question?
Is it simply 'making up your mind' so you can feel 'sure' of something, and stop thinking, wondering, learning?
This question equally applies to both parties, even if you base your decision on avail evidence, like me, does deciding 100% still
amount to faith in that?
Id say Im 99.99% convinced that life arose via evolution (adaption) even on a macro scale, But that .1 percent ?
For me personally, that .1 percent is the result of observation of my world, its sheer complexity of interelatedness, perfection in the vast magnitude of symbiosis between flora/fauna/environment, and on the sheer vastness of space within which such awesome life diversity can flourish due our proximity to our sun, by what appears to be sheer coincidence. :)
 
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The overall theory needs to be better explained and illustrated I think.

I agree completely! There is a huge gap in this country between science and the typical American person, there is some bizarre non-communication and it's what leads to this huge either-or mindset. Science in general needs to be more accessible to the masses, and not scare people away thinking that it's all difficult, boring, and incomprehensible without a bachelor's and a master's lol.
 
The overall theory needs to be better explained and illustrated I think.
Is faith for the sake of it, really just self justified arrogance, an easy way out of a frustrating and unanswerable question?
Is it simply 'making up your mind' so you can feel 'sure' of something, and stop thinking, wondering, learning?
This question equally applies to both parties, even if you base your decision on avail evidence, like me, does deciding 100% still
amount to faith in that?
Id say Im 99.99% convinced that life arose via evolution (adaption) even on a macro scale, But that .1 percent ?
For me personally, that .1 percent is the result of observation of my world, its sheer complexity of interelatedness, perfection in the vast magnitude of symbiosis between flora/fauna/environment, and on the sheer vastness of space within which such awesome life diversity can flourish due our proximity to our sun, by what appears to be sheer coincidence. :)

Wow Jo-I could not agree with you more here.
 
I agree completely! There is a huge gap in this country between science and the typical American person, there is some bizarre non-communication and it's what leads to this huge either-or mindset. Science in general needs to be more accessible to the masses, and not scare people away thinking that it's all difficult, boring, and incomprehensible without a bachelor's and a master's lol.

Perfectly stated! I tried to convey this earlier but you did a much better job! :)
 
These are "Creation Scientists" doing "Creation Research" and much of the scientific community finds them laughable and non-qualified. Again-it is all what you "believe".

Not to be anal, but I find what you said to be simply stupid and objective. Regardless of the backround of the scientists, the data they acquired was fact. Here are the list of the scientists themselves:

Larry Vardiman, PhD Atmospheric Science
Russell Humphreys, PhD Physics
Eugene Chaffin, PhD Physics
John Baumgardner, PhD Geophysics
Donald DeYoung, PhD Physics
Steven Austin, PhD Geology
Andrew Snelling, PhD Geology

All these men are highly educated and have graduated from top schools. So "laughable and non-qualified" is not the way i would describe them.

And thank you Jojackson & Olimpia for the explanation.
 
LIESS! ;) :D The only stuff that is real is the stuff I can see and/or touch! (Well, maybe stuff I can smell too...)




In case anyone doesn't get it... I'm kidding.
 
Not to be anal, but I find what you said to be simply stupid and objective. Regardless of the backround of the scientists, the data they acquired was fact. Here are the list of the scientists themselves:

Larry Vardiman, PhD Atmospheric Science
Russell Humphreys, PhD Physics
Eugene Chaffin, PhD Physics
John Baumgardner, PhD Geophysics
Donald DeYoung, PhD Physics
Steven Austin, PhD Geology
Andrew Snelling, PhD Geology

All these men are highly educated and have graduated from top schools. So "laughable and non-qualified" is not the way i would describe them.

So are you going to discredit all the data in the link I provided? Did you read it? http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-age-of-earth.html

"There is overwhelming evidence that the magnetic field has reversed itself, rendering any unidirectional extrapolation on total energy useless. Even some young-Earthers admit to that these days -- e.g., Humphreys (1988)."

How can you say one scientists research is fact and another not? That is also being objective regardless if that is what you believe or not.
 
Eltortu, your 'santa' post gives the impression of deliberate and provocative sarcasm in an attempt to derail what has been a remarkably civil and intelligent discussion so far.
Given you have not yourself made significant contribution throughout 19 pages, this strengthens that impression considerably.
Your response appears to be motivated by a need to express an opinion on religion itself.
I remind you that incidental mention of religious ideology has been kindly tolerated by admin and mods where it relates specifically to the subject of evolution only, and that
subjects and the discussion of religion are in themselves not permitted specifically because of such comments.
As somebody enjoying this rather rare opportunity I ask you please to refrain from doing that, even though you are very much entitled to your opinion.
Fair go mate, you dont have to read the thread, please dont ruin it for everyone else. :)
 
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That is also being objective regardless if that is what you believe or not.

I think you mean failing to be objective. :)
Both of you please remember, despite the title, this was not intended (I dont think) as a debate as such but rather a discussion.
You are at the point where, were it a debate, you would be obliged by the rules of engagement, to either concede your opponents point and move on, or make a specific and relative counterpoint.
Since its not a debate, you could simply fail to respond and move on.
Both sides will find it rather difficult if neither side can concede a point and say,
"fair enough you might be right".
That done the discussion can move on without being weighed down or sidetracked by a further discussion about who's scientists are better. :D

I think this is the major reason many folk decline to contribute to a discussion of this nature, where there are no clear 'rules of engagement' to guide folk how to respond, its very difficult to keep it fair for everyone who contributes.
Carefully structured debate with clear and strict rules that are understood and obeyed by all parties, are a far better medium for a subject of this nature.
 
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I'm sure the length and general deeper thinking/education required in certain aspects of the discussion help too. It's hard to speak out when others make you feel stupid or uneducated (in this case I mean both in respect to religion AND science, as few are actually well taught on either subject, let alone both together.)

It is a very thought provoking discussion, in which some people just cannot do for whatever reason. Perhaps because they are not interested, are more visual learners, or because they just dont know enough about the subject to understand it.
 
First I would like to say I am not sure how you relate being anal to what I said being stupid and objective. That simply does not make sense.

Now this is not simply directed at you Mr. Ryan, but at many. Are you scientifically educated enough to comprehend what any scientist is saying? Enough to support or argue the point? I personally feel like I have a only basic understanding having a degree in molecular genetics with plenty of classes in anthropology, development, etc. But I have enough background/education to comprehend and support a decent argument, as well as what I am willing to believe. You cannot believe everything you read.

Additionally, it was not my personal feeling that they are "laughable and non-qualified", that is what much of the scientific community feels about their "experiment". There is plenty of factual literature out there disproving what they are trying to prove.

Not to be anal, but I find what you said to be simply stupid and objective. Regardless of the backround of the scientists, the data they acquired was fact. Here are the list of the scientists themselves:

Larry Vardiman, PhD Atmospheric Science
Russell Humphreys, PhD Physics
Eugene Chaffin, PhD Physics
John Baumgardner, PhD Geophysics
Donald DeYoung, PhD Physics
Steven Austin, PhD Geology
Andrew Snelling, PhD Geology

All these men are highly educated and have graduated from top schools. So "laughable and non-qualified" is not the way i would describe them.

And thank you Jojackson & Olimpia for the explanation.
 
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So are you going to discredit all the data in the link I provided? Did you read it? http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-age-of-earth.html

"There is overwhelming evidence that the magnetic field has reversed itself, rendering any unidirectional extrapolation on total energy useless. Even some young-Earthers admit to that these days -- e.g., Humphreys (1988)."

How can you say one scientists research is fact and another not? That is also being objective regardless if that is what you believe or not.

Thank you for the article and this is great evidence supporting a "4.5 Billion" year old earth. However when further reading about Isochron dating in the article you gave me it states "There are known processes which can result in incorrect isochron ages, and examples of each are known in the field." It goes further into saying that you will get a correct date 9/10 of the time. What about the other 10% of the time? Im not sure on the reliability of Carbon dating, but Lead/Uranium dating seems to have a good amt. of room for error.
 
First I would like to say I am not sure how you relate being anal to what I said being stupid and objective. That simply does not make sense.

Yes it was until just now I realized i misused that phrase...:eek:

Now this is not simply directed at you Mr. Ryan, but at many. Are you scientifically educated enough to comprehend what any scientist is saying? Enough to support or argue the point? I personally feel like I have a only basic understanding having a degree in molecular genetics with plenty of classes in anthropology, development, etc. But I have enough background/education to comprehend and support a decent argument, as well as what I am willing to believe. You cannot believe everything you read.

Though I am still a highschool student I can understand scientific material quite well. I have taken classes such as Anatomy, Advanced Placement Biology, A.P. Chemistry, and Physics. In addition, I am a part of my school's robotics program. I obviously have not attended college yet, and do not have a specific degree like you. In the subject of evolution, I can only base my thinking and arguments on things I have read. And precisely, you cannot believe everything that is in your textbooks.:)
 
Or teachers! You have no idea how many times my science and history teachers have been wrong, especially regarding the accurateness of certain 'facts.'
 
imho

it is not a matter of who is "right or wrong" or "who is more believable"

but it seems in the last few pages, it was the only thing that mattered to people.
 
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