Do you believe in evolution?

Because its the things we do share like most of our genome that make us relatives. Okay so you're not holding your religious bias, but you're not looking at it from an educated point of view and you're just dismissing it as not holding water. Are you a geneticist? Are you an evolutionary biologist? Have you ever read a book about it? Because if you had it all those would make pretty good sense, at least far more sense than the alternative explanations and hypothesis that have never explained anything consistently.
 
Evolution itself makes no claim as to whether there is a god, how the universe began, or if this is just some random computer simulation. Counter to what many believe, evolution and religion are not necessarily mutually exclusive. Evolution is a very real scientific aspect of nature that helps to explain the vast diversity of life. There is strong evidence to support the theory, but it does little to answer the deep religious and philosophical questions that everyone asks at some point.

We have a site policy that does not allow for religious or political debate. We may not always enforce it immediately, but as soon as it becomes slightly personal we have no choice. The problems and conflicts that arise from such discussions are not worth the trouble at a chameleon related forum. However, evolution is a very relevant topic for chameleon enthusiasts. I think it's possible to discuss evolution without debating the validity of current religions or disparaging others for their views. If you are going to participate please make an extra effort not to offend anyone; your actions could shut the thread down for everyone.

:)
 
All i need to do is go to the zoo.... checkout the primates.... that is all the evidence I need... As well as some Nat Geo to fill in the Gaps with some Ancient Aliens and it all makes perfect ........ The Chameleon is the most awesome product of evolution!!!! We all could learn a thing or two or three from them!
 
Brad said:
Evolution itself makes no claim as to whether there is a god, how the universe began, or if this is just some random computer simulation. Counter to what many believe, evolution and religion are not necessarily mutually exclusive. Evolution is a very real scientific aspect of nature that helps to explain the vast diversity of life. There is strong evidence to support the theory, but it does little to answer the deep religious and philosophical questions that everyone asks at some point.
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True that :cool:
I believe that evolution by natural selection is how life became complex and adapted to different environments. I believe that the Earth revolves around the Sun in the same way. Any explanation of why I believe those things would take a while........Future evidence could potentially change my mind because that's how science works.............
I have read 'On the origin of species' recently and it does show that there is no practical need for there to be any kind of non-natural process to have been involved in lifes great tapestry. Because of the implications of an explanation for how life came to be as it is that doesn't require 'God', the theory has been constantly misrepresented since it was first published.
Nowhere in the book does it say 'God doesn't exist' though because Darwin was right, and he knew that science can't answer some questions :)
Evolution and God can't be mutually exclusive because God can't be defined scientifically. Evolutionary theory is defined scientifically.
I believe God exists because there is paradox in everything. If there is one universe and it is infinite the maths don't add up. One and infinite are the same thing - I can't prove it but that's the point!
There are some people who don't believe in god, but do believe in evolution.
There are some people who do believe in god, but don't believe in evolution. There are people who believe in both (like I do) and there are people who believe in neither.
The only people who are foolish are the ones who try to use the theory of evolution to persuade others to change their minds about God.......or vice versa......

The answer always depends how you frame the question, so the real 'truths' are always just blowing in the wind, my friends :D
 
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Ok , just one more thought on the matter from me . Is it unfathomable that both happened ?? Say , on one side of the planet God says " I'm gonna try evolving man from ape over here " , and one the other side of the planet , he says " Now I'm gonna start with a man and a woman , and let's see which fares better " . Just a thought .... I now return to my emoti-cave , from whence I came .

banana-monkey-34.gif
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Me as a baby
 
Sorry for the tangent mods, it was likely me that got the thread suspended. I would love to discuss it without religious overtones but when some people simply chose to disbelieve it, usually because of their religion, I'm just left scratching my head. There may be some people who believe neither but ive never met them. Evolution doesn't explain god and god doesn't explain evolution. There we go. So what is it? Subtle variations in a population over time. These changes don't necessarily have to be advantageous. Just passed along and replicated. As long as they have a neutral or positive affect on the life form and not a negative one. As with the development of the wing.
 
DekuScrub said:
nice example and i agree buuuuuut. if youre a salamander in a cave they seem to have degenerated. then eyesight is no longer a discerning factor in survivability, and they just become vestigial. no reason to pour precious energy into growing a useless organ. OR if youre a bat and youve developed overyly sensitive hearing that is much more effective in obtaining you prey selection. better hearing is now the name of the game and eyesight is put on a backburner as far as future development goes.
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But what?
These animals evolved those traits at one point and then when their situations changed and felt different pressures to adapt, some parts became more specialized and others lost their purpose. It doesn't invalidate anything I said. The bat felt more pressure to hunt at night and get better eye sight, so the ears became more and more acute, while vision no longer felt pressure to maintain the same or get better, so it didn't matter what it did. Am I making sense?

If you have two bats that have excellent hearing but have weak eyes and breed, they get babies with excellent hearing but poor eye sight. And this is OK, because they don't need the eyes to survive. If they did, those offspring would die off and only the bats born with both good hearing and good sight would carry on.
 
okiroo said:
prove it- "We did in fact come from apes, that is why we are so closely related"

i think evolution is real but theres no proof as far as i know of this. yes we are closely related but that doesnt mean "We came form apes" just beacuse two chams look alike doesnt mean they came from the same ancestor. DNA plays a role but if you really look apes and human dna isnt as similar as people claim it to be. they focus in one one type thats the most similar, humans cant even breed with apes.
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This is a pretty universally accepted fact in the scientific community, no one doubts that chimps and bonobos are our two more closely related cousins. Here's an article that's easy to read about the differences and similarities in the genome: http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2005/08/0831_050831_chimp_genes.html
If a person was very genetically similar to you, wouldn't you assume they were family? You really can't be genetically similar to something you aren't similarly related to, that's just the way it works. I am not genetically similar to a beetle, or a tarp. But I am to a chimp, because some 60 mil year ago or so we split from a similar branch, sharing a common ancestor. We didn't come from apes, we AND apes came from a common ancestor that was neither homonid or ape-like, and the two lines split from there.

We share a lot of DNA with most animals because we did all come from the same stock, as it were, but we are much more similar to the great apes, and more still to chimps.

And chameleons all probably did come from the same common ancestor! It's why they all belong to the same family, while other lizards belong to different families, but are all under the same class. Just like all felines share a similar ancestor, and canines, and whales/dolphins, equines, etc...
 
Deep thought like this always fascinates me, but I was alittle hesitant to reply because I do have religous belifes,...but putting that aside, I also have an education.



@ChappymcChap- for one, I may or may not agree with your ideas, but I know its not right to say its ignorant and arrogant for people to think we have a "GOD". And the faith these people have is not just an "assumption", many great scientists belive in a high power out side our limits. You can prove or disprove it, same with evolution. You may have some "evidence", but is it really evidence??? or people seeing what they want to??? that goes for both sides.
Just saying, everyone is entitled to their own belief, and someone having a different ideology does not make them more or less "intelegent" than you.

BUT! I do agree. Although I may be religous, I too scratch my head when people allow God to cause them to be close minded. I always approach something with an open mind set ( at least I try) and try to dissolve it later. But the main issue I see is both sides thinking they are right ( this may be confuseing but bare with me), and this causes stuborness when both parties shutdown because they feel attacked.

I think we are too young as a race to really understand it all. Sure we could discuss this until,...forever, but I think we'd just be running in circles....I'm not implying we should stop discussion altogether tho haha.
 
The difference is there is testable evidence for evolution and none for the alternative. I said its arrogant to assume a supernatural presence because well it is, and this arrogance comes out of ignorance. Maybe this will help explain:
So what does this have to do with arrogance? Well, as we can see, every single time that a supernatural cause has been proposed, it has turned out to be wrong. This mode of thinking has a 100% rate of failure. Not good! However, people continue to believe that their favorite god created the universe, created life, works miracles, answers prayers, ect. Believe it or not, but this mode of thinking is about as intellectually arrogant as you can possibly get. Someone who says "God did ________" is essentially saying "no amount of scientific investigation will ever solve this problem. I know that if we went a trillion years into the future, science will still have not discovered the answer to the question of ________." So basically, by holding supernatural beliefs, you have to claim that you are in fact, omniscient. The only possible way you could ever think that something was caused by something supernatural would be to have a perfect understanding of the workings of the universe, and then know that there is no naturalistic explanation. That's a big claim.
 
IMO God is a 'Subatomic biological engineer.' I believe in Science, and I believe in 'something' behind that science. Whatever it is, no one on this planet knows yet.

We simply do not understand everything. We haven't even been to another planet yet, hundreds of Earth-like planets have just been discovered in the last few years by the Kepler program at NASA. HUNDREDS!

There is a lot of junk science, and there is a lot of junk religion, but so long as the conversation carries on, imaginations will be sparked, egos will need to be proved right (or wrong), and progress will be made!

I hope to live a thousand years to see it.


This is a fascinating clip from a PBS documentary about honey bees. This clip unlocked a door in my mind when it comes to the 'force' behind evolution, I hope it does the same for others.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oTYrS9mPQsk&feature=related

Yes, I believe in Evolution. But I don't think anyone can say with exacting precision what the force behind it really is.
 
D'oh! I thought this was a new thread, but just read all the 21 other pages. Sorry for contributing to the ressurecting :eek:

Just some points that weren't really addressed: Someone asked about Why are there apes, and us, and nothing in between?

Well, there were. There have been 12 species of upright walking apes (Hominids) over the last few hundred thousand years. Not many all lived at the same time, though several may have, we now know that Neanderthals were not related at all to us, though lived amongst us until we basically 'outsmarted' them and survived when they could not.

When colonists went to Tanzania, they eradicated all the indigenous people. The Tanzanian aboriginals are extinct. You don't think through the bloody history of empires and colonization that this may have happened before to our closer Hominid family, but wasn't recorded?

Also, someone asked why there is no recent evidence of evolution unless it's been man-made?

Well, there has been very recent proof of evolution: http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2008/04/080421-lizard-evolution.html

Man influenced, but not man-made.

And for those out there like me who know man has a role in manipulating evolution, here is a great advancement made recently: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V48M5j-6zdE&list=UUAuUUnT6oDeKwE6v1NGQxug&index=63&feature=plpp_video maybe I will live a thousand years to see all of this play out!
 
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I am late to the conversation and havent read the whole thread


Of course I believe in evolution. Its factual. (as factual as any other theory, such as the theory of gravity) It is not debatable. Even if you believe in zeus or rah or jesus or whatever, doesnt make evolution go away.

pssh said:
Well, from what I understand, the main reasoning for not believing in evolution (scientifically) is because we have not actually seen it happen.
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and Actually, we HAVE seen it happen. Evolution has been withnessed in creatures that have short life spans, rapid growth (fruit flies, algae, etc)

There is actually no evidence against evolution. And all evidence supports it.


Dupontman2 said:
I have a question! How come evolution stopped for humans. If we came from apes why arent there still some in transition? We have apes and humans and nothing in between and none are currently changing!
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We ARE still evolving and changing. There is no evidence to the contrary.
We did NOT come from Apes. We and Apes came from a common ancestor.
Evolution doesnt mean creating new species anyways.
 
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Wow, it's been a loooong time since I saw this thread!

Just to repeat what I'm sure I said months ago when I first commented, I definitely acknowledge that evolution happens. I'm not sure why we use the term "believe" in this context, since no one else questions if you believe in the loads of other theories that everyone takes as fact - like gravity, heliocentricity, flight, etc.

I bet half the people who don't think that evolution still occurs go to their doctor every year to get a new flu shot and have no idea why. Why do we need a new shot every year, does last year's expire? No! The influenza virus makes it around the world and by the time it makes it back it has changed, mutated, and evolved to survive the vaccine, and a new dozen strains are created. It is then up to vaccine companies to figure out which one stands the best chance of being the dominant strain in the coming year and race to fabricate a vaccine for it. This is a non-stop battle, because viruses and bacteria have such a quick life cycle that they evolve in a very short amount of time.
 
I like the flu shot example. I want to know what happens when there is no more room for us, we have 7 billion people and the population doubles every 35 years or so. I think a good plague would do our planet good. So we stop messing with what took years to make. Our chameleons are running out of space! Sorry this is sort of off topic and negative.
 
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