Does anyone use a liqued multivitamin?
- Thread starter jsikes88
- Start date
Why do you think it's the way to go?
jsikes88
New Member
Sublingual aka in the mouth has a 87% absorption ratio compared to "dusting" with a 5-9% absorption ratio, and with a liquid or syrup you can ensure how much intake your chameleon is getting by dropping a recommended dose instead of guessing on how many crickets he/she may eat.
justin
justin
Do you have any studies to back up those numbers? Considering there are very few nutrition studies done on chameleons in general I am highly suspicious of where this data came from. And there are very, very few things absorbed sublingually better than through the process of digestion. I call cow poops on those numbers. No necessarily on the liquid vitamin aspect, although I would prefer dusting since I don't always have time to give oral meds.
jsikes88
New Member
After about 1 second google came up with about 89 million different forms of sublingual intake,
Here is a link to one.
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Advantages_and_disadvantages_of_sublingual_y_intake_drugs#page2
justin
Here is a link to one.
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Advantages_and_disadvantages_of_sublingual_y_intake_drugs#page2
justin
jsikes88
New Member
I work for internal medicine doctors, they tell me what the absorption rates are for different medications/vitamins. I highly doubt chameleons are completely different in the way they consume and secrete vitamins, though im no self proclaimed expert I do know how to read numbers and when a chameleon who is sick gets administer about a fifteenth's amount of liquid orally NOT thru a dust must mean they want it to work. 
justin
justin
jsikes88
New Member
Ouch, this one farat if you read it over and compute what information is being said will.... Not be good for your case, sublingual intake vs dusting is a no brainer btw, just wanted to see what kind of response would be had
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absorption_(pharmacokinetics)
justin
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absorption_(pharmacokinetics)
justin
I am aware of what sublingual intake means (which is the only thing you've actually provided here - a definition). But you have zero evidence to actually backup your numbers. Where did those come from?
Instead of finding a wiki answers definition maybe you need to look at the pharmacokinetics.
I am not saying that sublingual absoprtion is not superior for some compounds because there are some where that is the case. I'm saying you do not have the data to indicate that vitamins specifically are better absorbed via this route and that your numbers sound made up.
It seems to me to be a no brainer that dusting has been working for many generations of captive chameleons and therefore is clearly effective. You are suggesting otherwise and I'm merely asking you to prove it, or at the least provide sound evidence to support it. You're also suggesting that a liquid is going to be absorbed purely sublingually based on your argument. Why is that? Will it be rendered inert if swallowed? Since I give liquid calcium to mine (because it is a stronger concentration, not because it's better absorbed) I know that it works and she usually swallows most of it. When a chameleon eats a dusted cricket and it sits in the mouth for the same amount of time as a liquid would does it not also absorb sublingually? Why would a liquid formulation of the same compound be more or less efficient? These are the questions you need to answer to gain any footing, not just tell me what sublingual absorption is.
Instead of finding a wiki answers definition maybe you need to look at the pharmacokinetics.
You know all of those factors for all the ingredients in your vitamin specifically for reptilian mucosa and physiology? Yes, reptilian physiology and pharmacokinetics can be that different.
I am not saying that sublingual absoprtion is not superior for some compounds because there are some where that is the case. I'm saying you do not have the data to indicate that vitamins specifically are better absorbed via this route and that your numbers sound made up.
It seems to me to be a no brainer that dusting has been working for many generations of captive chameleons and therefore is clearly effective. You are suggesting otherwise and I'm merely asking you to prove it, or at the least provide sound evidence to support it. You're also suggesting that a liquid is going to be absorbed purely sublingually based on your argument. Why is that? Will it be rendered inert if swallowed? Since I give liquid calcium to mine (because it is a stronger concentration, not because it's better absorbed) I know that it works and she usually swallows most of it. When a chameleon eats a dusted cricket and it sits in the mouth for the same amount of time as a liquid would does it not also absorb sublingually? Why would a liquid formulation of the same compound be more or less efficient? These are the questions you need to answer to gain any footing, not just tell me what sublingual absorption is.
Last edited:
Provancha65
Avid Member
Neither of these links provide any data regarding the benefit of using a liquid multivitamin and sublingual intake/absorption. One is quite literally nothing more than a wiki answer that does not include any sort of legitimate scientific, empirical references and the other is information compiled from a single reference derived from Kaplan Pharmacology that discusses the process in human subjects alone.
"I highly doubt chameleons are completely different in the way they consume and secrete vitamins, though im no self proclaimed expert I do know how to read numbers and when a chameleon who is sick gets administer about a fifteenth's amount of liquid orally NOT thru a dust must mean they want it to work."
I hardly know where to begin with this statement, there are hardly any similarities in regards to how a chameleon metabolizes and absorbs vitamins/minerals in comparison to a hominid. The fact that our metabolic rate and that of a chameleon differ so drastically should be an indicator of such a distinction. A sick chameleon who receives an oral medication is not receiving a vitamin, they are receiving either an antibiotic, anti-viral, or anti-parasitic solution that is in no way even related to a nutrient. Even if the medication is in a liquid form it's application may vary based on the case for which it is being prescribed. There currently is not enough information regarding the nature of the tissues within a chameleon's oral cavity, esophagus, stomach, or intestinal tract to even begin making such assumptions, or whether the anatomy of each varying species would react uniformly to said supplement applications.
Beyond all of this, it seems strange to challenge the knowledge of a Veterinarian/Biologist when you seem to be inquiring about the matter to begin with. Granted that veterinary school typically does not fixate on exotics extensively, let alone chameleons, field experience and biological research tend to help establish a foundation in which a DVM may draw from; VIN (Veterinary Information Network) is an equally invaluable resource that I feel will help advance the realm of herpetology drastically.
If I have made any statements that you may disagree with please feel free to address my errors accordingly, beyond that, being both polite and modest in criticism when interacting with forum members helps sustain, or even improve, the fiber of this community.
"I highly doubt chameleons are completely different in the way they consume and secrete vitamins, though im no self proclaimed expert I do know how to read numbers and when a chameleon who is sick gets administer about a fifteenth's amount of liquid orally NOT thru a dust must mean they want it to work."
I hardly know where to begin with this statement, there are hardly any similarities in regards to how a chameleon metabolizes and absorbs vitamins/minerals in comparison to a hominid. The fact that our metabolic rate and that of a chameleon differ so drastically should be an indicator of such a distinction. A sick chameleon who receives an oral medication is not receiving a vitamin, they are receiving either an antibiotic, anti-viral, or anti-parasitic solution that is in no way even related to a nutrient. Even if the medication is in a liquid form it's application may vary based on the case for which it is being prescribed. There currently is not enough information regarding the nature of the tissues within a chameleon's oral cavity, esophagus, stomach, or intestinal tract to even begin making such assumptions, or whether the anatomy of each varying species would react uniformly to said supplement applications.
Beyond all of this, it seems strange to challenge the knowledge of a Veterinarian/Biologist when you seem to be inquiring about the matter to begin with. Granted that veterinary school typically does not fixate on exotics extensively, let alone chameleons, field experience and biological research tend to help establish a foundation in which a DVM may draw from; VIN (Veterinary Information Network) is an equally invaluable resource that I feel will help advance the realm of herpetology drastically.
If I have made any statements that you may disagree with please feel free to address my errors accordingly, beyond that, being both polite and modest in criticism when interacting with forum members helps sustain, or even improve, the fiber of this community.
jsikes88
New Member
This thread is ripe with weird statements, to put it nicely...
sandrachameleon
Chameleon Enthusiast
are you forcing the liquid into its mouth? that doesn't sound like a good plan. but I don't know how else you'd be sure how much its getting. Further, why are you guessing how many crickets (and hopefully other bugs as well) your cham is eating? why not keep track / monitor?
Norcal55
Avid Member
could not have said it better lol
Panther Company
Avid Member
so what jsikes88 is being coy about is that he has been working on developing a liquid nutrient for chams.
we bought some falys from him several months ago, and he sent some samples. the idea of putting our chams through the stress of injecting liquid vitamins in their mouths vs dusting their food was a complete no go. but we did try the product when we had a sick cham that wasn't eating. we mixed some of the liquid nutrients with the bug mash.
the big block to adoption will be getting people that want to essentially force feed their chams their vitamin supplements, and who believe the tradeoff in claims of better absorption are worth significant stress.
Mind you, chameleons don't like the taste of the vitamins... so even a "friendly" cham doesn't enjoy getting the liquid vitamins injected into their mouths. Now picture trying to incorporate into your regimen if you also keep WCs. Not happening. Stress will kill them before nutrition effectiveness even becomes an issue.
we bought some falys from him several months ago, and he sent some samples. the idea of putting our chams through the stress of injecting liquid vitamins in their mouths vs dusting their food was a complete no go. but we did try the product when we had a sick cham that wasn't eating. we mixed some of the liquid nutrients with the bug mash.
the big block to adoption will be getting people that want to essentially force feed their chams their vitamin supplements, and who believe the tradeoff in claims of better absorption are worth significant stress.
Mind you, chameleons don't like the taste of the vitamins... so even a "friendly" cham doesn't enjoy getting the liquid vitamins injected into their mouths. Now picture trying to incorporate into your regimen if you also keep WCs. Not happening. Stress will kill them before nutrition effectiveness even becomes an issue.
