Does my Jackson's Chameleon have MBD?

C

Coheed

New Member
Completely updated this post with more information and pictures, I hope it helps!

Chameleon -Female Jackson's about 11 months old and I've had her for three months
Handling -once a month, only when I clean her cage
Supplements -Reptical Calcium dust with D3 lightly dusted three times a week. Last five feedings haven't been dusted because I think its part of the problem.
Watering-Misted atleast twice a day, she has a dripper all day and I see her drink daily.
Food 8-10 small crickets every other day gut loaded with Flukers Orange cube. (switching to a home made recipe for Jackson's this week)
Fecal Description- Light to dark brown pellets and white urate
History-She was bought from a petstore, the manager said she had been in their care for five months.
Cage Type All Screen Enclosure 20inches tall, 18 Inches wide, 12 Inches deep.
Lighting Zoo Med Reptisun 5.0 Bulb in a dome lamp. 50-75 Watt (I can't remember) flukers basking bulb in a dome lamp.
Humidity Varies throughout the day usually staying between 65-80%. Measured by a digital hydrometer.
Plants No live plants. Six artificial ones
Location Ohio. Enclosure located in my room which is very low traffic
Temps 80 Degrees at her highest perch about four inches away from the basking lamp and 68 Degrees on her lowest perch measure by a digital therm.
Current Problem She's not herself. Very Lethargic only moving between two branches through out the day and almost always showing stress colors. She's eating and drinking normally but she's much more slow moving than usual and slightly wobbly at times when she's climbing. She seems to be having trouble with her right hind leg sometimes holding it up and only standing on her other three legs other times only lightly resting it on the branch while her other three legs have a firm grip, I have also seen her do this only a few times with her left hind leg as well. She also has a Pale patch from about an 8th of an inch on her back before her hind legs all the way to about half an inch into her tail this patch used to be almost paper white but since i haven't been dusting my crickets with the D3Reptical her color has returned but its still noticeably pale in that area. Important information: I was dusting her crickets with the D3 Reptical three times a week for about two months. This was completely by accident I though it was normal calcium but about three weeks ago I noticed a small logo on the container that read "With D3!" and Immediately stopped using it. I plan on taking her to the vet but since the nearest reputable exotic vet with Chameleon experience is almost four hours away from me the earliest I can get her to a vet will be friday of next week. In the mean time what could this be? What immediate measures should I take to help her? The pictures don't depict the pale patch well. Thank you!!
Zt7aoIG.jpg
 
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Unfortnatly I can't post any pictures at this time because I don't have a camera, but Ill borrow one from a friend and post pictures tonight. Until then this is the best description I can give about her colors. as stated in my post she's displaying her stress colors 65%-70% her stress colors are a patchy pattern of dark greens, browns, and almost blacks with some pale green.
 
mbd doesn't really have much to do about the colours rather deformations in the bones and weakened bones. id read the thread about mbd and learn what it is before you are worried about it and your title may need to be changed because its misleading. to really tell if mbd is present only way to really confirm is by pictures
 
A couple of things....you definitely should not be using d3 everyday, especially with a Jacksons chameleon. Check the recommended dusting schedule in Care Resources caresheets for Jackson chameleons. Overdose of artificial d3 would not cause MBD, but surely can cause problems with their organs. Some brands use a higher concentration than others, but using it daily is not safe regardless. As far as the tail, it sounds as if she is going to shed. It can look whitish for awhile sometimes before they will shed and as the get older they will shed in body parts more so than full body sheds. Lastly, if she is eating everyday she should be having a bowel/urate movement atleast every couple of days. Sometimes they can go longer, but if has been two weeks there is a possibility that she ha some sort of problem related to going the bathroom like an impaction of some sort. Check the cage really good for the poop. It may not fall to the bottom(if that is where you are looking) and it shrivels and dries up pretty quickly so it might not be as easy to spot. Try checking on the leaves, sides of branches, or in the pot plants.
 
She just had a bowel movement and it was notably larger than usual but not huge. She hasn't had a bowel movement in a week.
 
jamjam said:
mbd doesn't really have much to do about the colours rather deformations in the bones and weakened bones. id read the thread about mbd and learn what it is before you are worried about it and your title may need to be changed because its misleading. to really tell if mbd is present only way to really confirm is by pictures
Click to expand...
Ive read from multiple sources Chameleons use their colors to communicate things like poor health. Her shakiness combined with her lethargy as well as constant display of stress colors is what leads me to believe she's in the early stages of MBD. Noticeable limb deformations don't occur until advance stages of MBD. You don't just wake up one day and find your Cham's arms bowed out, its a slow process and I was hoping to catch it early on.
 
Coheed said:
Ive read from multiple sources Chameleons use their colors to communicate things like poor health. Her shakiness combined with her lethargy as well as constant display of stress colors is what leads me to believe she's in the early stages of MBD. Noticeable limb deformations don't occur until advance stages of MBD. You don't just wake up one day and find your Cham's arms bowed out, its a slow process and I was hoping to catch it early on.
Click to expand...

While it is true that it is a slow process, but I do not think that is the problem here.

As Carol said, she looks like she is going through or is about to start shedding, you'll want to keep the humidity up to help make that process go a little more smooth, without complications.

Also as Carol said, the D3 is really bad for them (in high doses like that), and that could be the root to your issue. Does the vet you're planning on going to do phone consultations perhaps?

Chase
 
carol5208 said:
A couple of things....you definitely should not be using d3 everyday, especially with a Jacksons chameleon. Check the recommended dusting schedule in Care Resources caresheets for Jackson chameleons. Overdose of artificial d3 would not cause MBD, but surely can cause problems with their organs. Some brands use a higher concentration than others, but using it daily is not safe regardless. As far as the tail, it sounds as if she is going to shed. It can look whitish for awhile sometimes before they will shed and as the get older they will shed in body parts more so than full body sheds. Lastly, if she is eating everyday she should be having a bowel/urate movement atleast every couple of days. Sometimes they can go longer, but if has been two weeks there is a possibility that she ha some sort of problem related to going the bathroom like an impaction of some sort. Check the cage really good for the poop. It may not fall to the bottom(if that is where you are looking) and it shrivels and dries up pretty quickly so it might not be as easy to spot. Try checking on the leaves, sides of branches, or in the pot plants.
Click to expand...
Thank you for your reply! I discontinued use of the D3 calcium for the time being, its bend about five feedings since I've dusted, will re-incorporate at a proper dosing level and schedule when she is feeling better.Hoping there was no severe damage and she will be her normal self again soon. I have raised the humidity in her enclosure to aid with shedding. She finally pooped today after a warm shower and it was notably larger the usual. Thanks again
 
Chase said:
While it is true that it is a slow process, but I do not think that is the problem here.

As Carol said, she looks like she is going through or is about to start shedding, you'll want to keep the humidity up to help make that process go a little more smooth, without complications.

Also as Carol said, the D3 is really bad for them (in high doses like that), and that could be the root to your issue. Does the vet you're planning on going to do phone consultations perhaps?

Chase
Click to expand...
Thanks for your answer! Ive raised the humidity in her enclosure, trying to keep it between 75-80% and I spoke with the vet over the phone and he says it could be a number of things because her symptoms are pretty general. he said anything from the early stages of MBD to possible neurological problems, as well as liver or kidney complications but he needs a stool sample and blood work to confirm anything. My poor Zuri ):
 
Coheed said:
Ive read from multiple sources Chameleons use their colors to communicate things like poor health.
Click to expand...

Well, that can be true, but a constant display of stress colors and shaky movements can more often be due to anxiety about surroundings, feeling exposed to view, stress from a recent move to new situations, etc. I don't recall coloration being a sign of MBD. I have seen chams who were constipated raise or hold up one hind leg or the other, crouching oddly, maybe as an attempt to get things moving. Your note about the overly large poop suggests that may have been the issue.
 
Carlton said:
Well, that can be true, but a constant display of stress colors and shaky movements can more often be due to anxiety about surroundings, feeling exposed to view, stress from a recent move to new situations, etc. I don't recall coloration being a sign of MBD. I have seen chams who were constipated raise or hold up one hind leg or the other, crouching oddly, maybe as an attempt to get things moving. Your note about the overly large poop suggests that may have been the issue.
Click to expand...
Thank you for your answer! Im hoping her condition will improve after this poop. But Im still trying to figure out why she's not active anymore.
 
Really, there are a number of things that come to mind.

In addition to the inadvertent D3 overdosing, I noticed that she hasn't been getting any multivitamins.

Jackson's need vitamin supplements less often than Veileds or Panthers but they do need them.

Some of us have unknowingly purchased females who were kept with males and we unexpectedly have a gravid cham.
Has she always been this "camo" pattern?
Is she rather wide looking?

Regardless of the cause, what you can do for her, in addition to adding a multivitamin , is to make sure she has a dripper for extra fluids and try some different, more watery feeders like hornworms or silkworms .

These are often available from Mulberry Farms, Great Lakes Hornworm, Coastal Silkworms and other forum sponsors, whose links are here
https://www.chameleonforums.com/index.php?page=sponsors
 
Lovereps said:
Really, there are a number of things that come to mind.

In addition to the inadvertent D3 overdosing, I noticed that she hasn't been getting any multivitamins.

Jackson's need vitamin supplements less often than Veileds or Panthers but they do need them.

Some of us have unknowingly purchased females who were kept with males and we unexpectedly have a gravid cham.
Has she always been this "camo" pattern?
Is she rather wide looking?

Regardless of the cause, what you can do for her, in addition to adding a multivitamin , is to make sure she has a dripper for extra fluids and try some different, more watery feeders like hornworms or silkworms .

These are often available from Mulberry Farms, Great Lakes Hornworm, Coastal Silkworms and other forum sponsors, whose links are here
https://www.chameleonforums.com/index.php?page=sponsors
Click to expand...
Thank you for your answer! you're right I haven't been using a multi-vitamin will be adding one to her diet now, any suggestions on what sort of multivitamin i should use and how frequently? She has only been displaying that camo pattern this frequently for about the last 2 weeks. She usually is a solid bright green with some light yellows and blues, she used to display her solid bright green pattern almost all day. Now she only displays it sometimes when she's hunting, drinking,sleeping, or basking thats why I'm worried.The only time she used to display her camo pattern was when I would open her cage to feed or mist her then she would return to her normal colors shortly after I was out of view. She's also much less active, and much slower moving when she is active, even when hunting. Otherwise she's the pattern you see in the picture, and that pattern goes from dark green to dark brown through out the day. Ive read that gravid females are aggressive, she's always been shy and nervous but never aggressive. Just yesterday I took her out of her cage to give her a warm shower to help her poop (she hated the shower, won't be doing that again) but even then she was just nervous not aggressive.She doesn't seem wide,only when she puffs up when Im around. Any thoughts on that? Ordering some horn and silk worms now, thank you for the suggestion
 
If she has only been camo for a couple of weeks, then she is not likely gravid.

Is she still holding her leg funny or did that change after she pooped?
Have you taken a good, close look at the foot that she is favoring?
Any missing nails? Swollen foot? Swollen toes?
Also examine the underside of her foot for possible cuts or discolorations.

Has anything changed in her cage?
A new plant?
Was her cage moved?
Any other pets nearby?
 
Lovereps said:
If she has only been camo for a couple of weeks, then she is not likely gravid.

Is she still holding her leg funny or did that change after she pooped?
Have you taken a good, close look at the foot that she is favoring?
Any missing nails? Swollen foot? Swollen toes?
Also examine the underside of her foot for possible cuts or discolorations.

Has anything changed in her cage?
A new plant?
Was her cage moved?
Any other pets nearby?
Click to expand...
I just took her out and looked at all of her feet, top and bottom, She has all toes and nails no wounds, scars, or noticeable swelling. while i was examine her all of her feet still had a very firm grip. I haven't seen her hold the leg up yet but I haven't been able to study her as closely today due to school and work. One thing I just remembered that I forgot to add to my original post that may be crucial. I have noticed on occasion when she is reaching, perhaps overreaching for a branch while climbing with that leg (the one she's having trouble with) it will lock at her knee causing the leg to stick straight out and and remain stuck until she happens to brush it up against something then it pops right back to normal. There was one time where I reached in while this was occurring and very gently just touched her leg at the knee and it popped back to normal but since then it has only happened a few more times but I try to resist the urge to help her correct it because Im afraid of hurting her or causing damage. She always has corrected it herself a short time after it locks out but she will climb around with her other three legs even while that leg it locked straight out. Is this common? Why would this be happening? I just moved her cage to a much higher location today because I read that can help with stress, She was on a stand that was only about a foot and a half off of the ground now she's on a dresser that is about three feet higher than the stand. She also just opened her mouth like she was yawning is that normal? one more thing, could a dirty cage stress them out? Her enclosure isn't disgusting but its due for a cleaning. sorry for drowning you in questions! I really appreciate your helpful responses.
 
Coheed said:
I just took her out and looked at all of her feet, top and bottom, She has all toes and nails no wounds, scars, or noticeable swelling. while i was examine her all of her feet still had a very firm grip. I haven't seen her hold the leg up yet but I haven't been able to study her as closely today due to school and work. One thing I just remembered that I forgot to add to my original post that may be crucial. I have noticed on occasion when she is reaching, perhaps overreaching for a branch while climbing with that leg (the one she's having trouble with) it will lock at her knee causing the leg to stick straight out and and remain stuck until she happens to brush it up against something then it pops right back to normal. There was one time where I reached in while this was occurring and very gently just touched her leg at the knee and it popped back to normal but since then it has only happened a few more times but I try to resist the urge to help her correct it because Im afraid of hurting her or causing damage. She always has corrected it herself a short time after it locks out but she will climb around with her other three legs even while that leg it locked straight out. Is this common? Why would this be happening? I just moved her cage to a much higher location today because I read that can help with stress, She was on a stand that was only about a foot and a half off of the ground now she's on a dresser that is about three feet higher than the stand. She also just opened her mouth like she was yawning is that normal? one more thing, could a dirty cage stress them out? Her enclosure isn't disgusting but its due for a cleaning. sorry for drowning you in questions! I really appreciate your helpful responses.
Click to expand...

She may have an old joint injury that affects its mobility. Sounds as if she handles it OK. Chams often "yawn" or gape during basking, after swallowing a feeder, or a long drinking session. If she's sitting quietly someplace low in the cage, showing a paler color, gaping for quite a while she could be too hot.

I don't think her cage's cleaning need stresses her.
 
The fact that her cage was too low certainly may be the cause of her stress coloration.
As for cleanliness of the cage, it probably won't stress her psychologically but it can make it much easier for her to become ill.
In the wild, a cham can get away from their poops, shed skin, etc. but in captivity, there's no escaping it.
High levels of bacteria in an area can easily lead to an infection.

As for her gaping, if it was for more than just a brief moment--could be anything ranging from she is too hot, trying to scare you away or a respiratory infection.
In the absence of other symptoms of illness, it is often nothing to be concerned about.
You can read all about cham health here.

I honestly don't know what is causing the problem with the leg.
It could be gout or a calcium buildup within the joint or a deformity of the joint caused by a defect from an injury or a malformation at birth or a nerve problem or a muscle problem.
If she was my cham, I would probably see if she improves after a week or two of changes to her diet (variety of feeders and a good insect gutload), added hydration and of her being in the better location
If the vet truly knows chameleons well, then he might be able to make a definitive diagnosis and hopefully without needing to do too many tests.
In any case, I'm not sure that there would be anything that could be done to resolve the leg issue or any organ damage, if any has occurred.
I would certainly be sure to mention that she was inadvertently given much more D3 than she should have been, if I went to the vet with her.
It could help the vet to make an accurate diagnosis much more easily.
If the vet does not have a good deal of experience with chams, then you may want to pass on the vet visit.
Vets who just have a general idea about cham care can, and sometimes do, make a cham much worse.
 
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