Egg cycle

[Sirbudlbc]

I have a veiled and she had clutch about 4 months ago. Over the last few days her behavior has changed and she's displaying a new color pattern and has started to refuse food. Could she be gravid this soon?

 

[Chameleon Mike]

My panther female lays every 2-3 months. You should get a lay bin in with her.

 

[Brodybreaux25]

A lay bin should be a permanent part of your females viv. Eliminates all the guess work...

 

[Fiona's Mom]

Agree with @Brodybreaux25 ...when I had a female a lay box was part of her enclosure enclosure. I decorated around it. You need to remember to keep it moistened. Get creative with a small plastic trash can and some contact paper and it won't stick out like a sore thumb.

 

[Brodybreaux25]

Cut a hole in the bottom of what ever your using, nothing huge 2” max. Then get some very fine steel mesh and put several layers of it over the hole in a crisscross pattern. I use a metal pot for the bin and JB Weld to secure the mesh to it. If your going to install a permanent bin this is critical so the bin doesn’t start to hold water and cause your girl to reject the bin.

I made this mistake the first time she used a permanent bin but luckily I had a WiFi cam on her bin and was actually able to see the water level as she dug down. I firmly believe this is why she digs out every live plant in her viv before finally laying in her bin. Pretty sure she does it just to remind me of that time I f’ed up!

 

[44937]

I did not have intentions of breeding my female until she hit her one year mark as suggested by others on this forum. But once the female starts laying eggs, is there any benefit to keep waiting until she is one year old?
My female is only 6 months and she's already laid 31 (infertile) eggs and I suspect she will be laying more again in the near future. I assume the amount of energy being diverted from her growth is the same whether the eggs are fertilized or not. Am I correct to assume that waiting until she is one year old to breed with a male is pointless at this point?

 

[Chameleon Mike]

I did not have intentions of breeding my female until she hit her one year mark as suggested by others on this forum. But once the female starts laying eggs, is there any benefit to keep waiting until she is one year old?
My female is only 6 months and she's already laid 31 (infertile) eggs and I suspect she will be laying more again in the near future. I assume the amount of energy being diverted from her growth is the same whether the eggs are fertilized or not. Am I correct to assume that waiting until she is one year old to breed with a male is pointless at this point?

You are incorrect. The about of energy and nutrients the female exhausts is far less with an infertile clutch. Females should be one year old before breeding. No exceptions.
Furthermore, line breeding and inbreeding are a big no no.

 

[44937]

OK good to know. Thanks. I had assumed the development of the calcium uptake to form the egg's shell is the primary depletion of energy and nutrient from the female.
May I ask how do we (you) know the energy and nutrients the female exhausts is far less with an infertile clutch? Does infertile eggs not have a yolk sac?

I also wanted to note that I didn't mention anything (nor do I have intentions) about line or inbreeding; not sure what prompted that piece of information.

 

[Chameleon Mike]

OK good to know. Thanks. I had assumed the development of the calcium uptake to form the egg's shell is the primary depletion of energy and nutrient from the female.
May I ask how do we (you) know the energy and nutrients the female exhausts is far less with an infertile clutch? Does infertile eggs not have a yolk sac?

I also wanted to note that I didn't mention anything (nor do I have intentions) about line or inbreeding; not sure what prompted that piece of information.

Just like chicken eggs infertile eggs have yolks, however the still growing females need the calcium and nutrients for they're own health.
If you don't have a healthy female you will not have healthy eggs or babies.
I found this out by doing research (books, articles, care sheets, searching forums on different questions, YouTube, and so on).

As far as the line breeding and inbreeding tip.. It doesn't sound like you did a whole lot of research if your thinking its okay to breed a 6 month old female. I wanted to give you a heads up that its not okay.

Just do as much research as possible. Read and reread as much as you can before you breed. The whole process if both nerve wrecking and exciting but very satisfying. There is a lot of people on here with much knowledge and willing to help. Hope I didn't come off to harsh.
Good luck with your endeavor.

 

[44937]

Ok so that didn't really answer my question about why the formation and laying of fertile eggs use up far more energy and nutrients from the female than the laying of infertile eggs.

The tip is a good to know but I did not have intentions to breed my 6 month old female (which I believe I stated firstly specifically just to avoid the perception that I did but nevertheless still attracted the assumption of the opposite). My original question was to inquire if the development of infertile eggs used the same amount of nutrients and energy from the females compared to the development of fertile eggs. Your response was quite convincing in that fertile eggs use up way more nutrients and energy compared to laying of infertile eggs. My response (in summary) is inquiring on how do you know that?
I thought I was quite direct in saying that I am aware that breeding of a female is best when they reach one year old based on research from other members on this forum.

I really do appreciate the responses from the experienced members on this forum. However I'm not sure how to interpret all the negative presumptions of facts. I know we all tend to read between the lines (literally) in a forum that is full of different people and posts that consist nothing but words. However in my experience I have noted there are more negative presumptions in this forum (in general) compared to many other forums I participate in. I am sure this is partly (if not mostly) perpetuated by the number of new members who come in with incorrect practices which they insist are correct. Regardless I think it is counterproductive to inject negative presumptions into a thread when questions are asked by people seeking more complex information and questions about the animals in our care. Hope I'm not coming across too harsh..... just expressing my observations.

 

[Brodybreaux25]

I doubt there is much research out there on how taxing a single egg is to the female at different points in the developmental process, especially when comparing fertile vs infertile. I would think that the fertile do tax the female more but I don’t know why or how much. Is it a huge difference or a small one? I do not know. Since the eggs will be laid either way I can see your argument for it being the same but I just have to think that she has to do something extra to fertilized eggs to ensure they make it through the diapause and hatching.

I found Mike’s post to be only slightly negative, very slightly. You are correct in your assumption that his response was formulated due to the high volume of new/thick headed members we deal with on a daily basis. We see so much bad husbandry here we feel the need to try to get out ahead of the other issues that we know will enevatably be coming later on down the road in relation to whatever topic is being discussed at the time.

Does that turn some members off? I’m sure it does but if your going to melt under such light heat you probably don’t belong in the kitchen anyway.

 

[44937]

I doubt there is much research out there on how taxing a single egg is to the female at different points in the developmental process, especially when comparing fertile vs infertile. I would think that the fertile do tax the female more but I don’t know why or how much. Is it a huge difference or a small one? I do not know. Since the eggs will be laid either way I can see your argument for it being the same but I just have to think that she has to do something extra to fertilized eggs to ensure they make it through the diapause and hatching.

Thank you Brodybreaux - this is the type of constructive discussion I was trying to elicit.
Is anybody qualified (ie vet) able to explain or elaborate on how the energy and nutrients the female exhausts is far less with an infertile clutch? Is this a fact, belief or speculation? Can this statement be made with accuracy if there is not much research on this topic?

I found Mike’s post to be only slightly negative, very slightly. You are correct in your assumption that his response was formulated due to the high volume of new/thick headed members we deal with on a daily basis. We see so much bad husbandry here we feel the need to try to get out ahead of the other issues that we know will enevatably be coming later on down the road in relation to whatever topic is being discussed at the time.

I do not disagree with the preemptive response to discourage future issues. However we will not grow and develop if we choose to shut down any discussions that contradict opinions or what is commonly practiced as the "norm". How many present-day chameleon care sheet practices were ridiculed or previously discounted when it contradicted the "norm" in the past?

Does that turn some members off? I’m sure it does but if your going to melt under such light heat you probably don’t belong in the kitchen anyway.

i can definitely take any heat in any kitchen but I just don't think the heat is necessary in a forum many people come to in search of information and help. In the spirit of open discussions and thinking outside the box to learn more about the animals we love to care for, new ideas will often evolve from open healthy discussions.

 

[Brodybreaux25]

I think these are going to be your best bet for a satisfying answer. I’m sure we have other members that probably can but I don’t know who they are. If any other members know who they are please tag them.
@Chris Anderson @ferretinmyshoes @Motherlode Chameleon

 

[cloverthechameleon]

Id be interested to hear the science and nutrition behind the differences between fertile and infertile clutches as well. One reason i can tell you fertile is more taxing on the body is the breeding itself, it can be very rough on the female sometimes the male clamps on with his claws sometimes puncturing the females skin. they sometimes also fall to lower branches of the viv. Does not look like an enjoyable experience for the female.

 

[Brodybreaux25]

Id be interested to hear the science and nutrition behind the differences between fertile and infertile clutches as well. One reason i can tell you fertile is more taxing on the body is the breeding itself, it can be very rough on the female sometimes the male clamps on with his claws sometimes puncturing the females skin. they sometimes also fall to lower branches of the viv. Does not look like an enjoyable experience for the female.

We’re talking about the nutritional requirements from the mother, not external factors.

 

[cloverthechameleon]

Totally understand that, hence why i said id be curious to see the science and nutrition behind the two.

 

[Brodybreaux25]

I skimmed through your post too fast and missed that part, my bad.

 

[Sirbudlbc]

Well shes in the bin itll be any day now.

 

[Brodybreaux25]

By the looks of it, it could be any hour now, that’s a big belly!

That’s why it’s so important for you to correct your lay bin now! It is nowhere near deep enough. Even if you filled it all the way to the top with substrate it would still only be borderline acceptable at best. Should be 10-12 inches deep.

You have to put up a sheet or something so she can not see you, she should only see you when offering food and water. If she can see you she will not lay, become egg bound, and die.

Are you keeping her in an aquarium?

 

[44937]

That lay bin is labelled at 4.5 inches high. Pls use one that is at least 12 inches high. Substrate should be moistened enough so it will hold shape when burrowed. It appears your substrate is quite dry but that's only based on what I can see in the picture.