Ethics of rescuing from a shop? (Should I?)

[jajeanpierre]

@D4saken1 I find your post beyond the pale.

You are actually expecting strangers to give you--a stranger--money to BUY an overpriced and possibly failing chameleon. Outrageous!

First, this is no rescue--THIS IS A PURCHASE. Whether the animal is healthy or ill is irrelevant. The animal is FOR SALE. You are asking whether you should PURCHASE it. No rescue involved. You supposedly fell in love with this animal when you first saw it six months ago. Don't expect strangers to buy what you want for you.

The second point is whether or not it is neglected or even ill. I've bought lots of chameleons that were in pretty rough shape. THEY WERE NEVER RESCUES--THEY WERE PURCHASES. I just picked out a newly imported animal for someone that kept its eyes closed, too. That animal is thriving.

You mention that you have handled many chameleons but nowhere do I read that you have actually owned one. Hmmmmm.... You make all kinds of diagnoses and observations about its behavior with no chameleon-keeping experience.

Hey, I want to rescue a few newly imported O'Shaughnessy chameleons. Maybe I can get CF members to buy them for me.

If you want to buy it, buy it. Don't come begging other people to fund your purchases. What a scam!

 

[Michelle Maxwell]

Really? For having a reptile for sale that isn't doing well? That's a bit of an over reach.

No that's why they would go look for them selfs I did ask for name and location so they can go out there i never said they would shut them down for one pet

 

[jajeanpierre]

No that's why they would go look for them selfs I did ask for name and location so they can go out there i never said they would shut them down for one pet

You are going to sic the authorities on some pet shop based on the anonymous post you read in a chameleon forum???? That too is a bit over the top.

[Boy, today I am easily outraged aren't I. I must be getting a migraine!]

 

[Angelwolf]

Yeah I can get females for about 150 and males about 250 here because we don't have breeders near by.

I will see if I can talk them down. I worry if I bring up the health the owner may get offended and kick me out and refuse to sell to me.

I will work with price first then see what I can do.

The setup and all that I can do now just not their crazy tag on him. If this all works out first thing on the list is a vet visit.

I will try to answer any questions that may rise on this page.

I plan to take pictures of his cage, price, and him when I next visit the shop to do an update. Also a bit of proof of conditions.

Sadly they aren't open until Monday.

Pictures would be very helpful. I would suggest you take copies of those pictures to an EXPERIENCED reptile vet, and explain his condition to him/her. See if they can give you any guess as to how much you will be looking at spending in order to get him healthy again. Ask the vet if he thinks the cham has a good prognosis, or not. I would only buy him if the vet thinks he can be saved. Don't forget that there may be other things that you can't see, such as organ damage, MBD, etc. I understand that the initial purchase will be very pricey, but please consider the vet costs you may be taking on both immediately and in the future. If the money aspect of the situation is too uncertain, I would strongly suggest turning away. I know that sounds harsh, but let's face it-most of us (generalized observation of the USA) are barely scraping by as it is. So, if the vet thinks he has a chance, try to talk the pet store down for AT LEAST the cost of 2 vet visits. If they won't, I would leave your name and number with them to consider their options, and hopefully they will contact you after they realize how much money and reputation they will loose again. Obviously they are not good at running a business.aybe they will pull their head out of their you-know-where! And if not, it wasn't meant to be, but take comfort in knowing that you did everything you could do. The world works in mysterious ways, and who knows what the future holds.

 

[Kristen Wilkins]

You are going to sic the authorities on some pet shop based on the anonymous post you read in a chameleon forum???? That too is a bit over the top.

[Boy, today I am easily outraged aren't I. I must be getting a migraine!]

I wish so many places would be held accountable for there pet actions . It's so sad . Your migran must be coming from bad chamealon owners . Please don't take that as I'm being rude to you I'm absolutely not . I just understand the frustration. I only have about a pinky worth of care and knowledge compared to you .

 

[jajeanpierre]

I wish so many places would be held accountable for there pet actions . It's so sad . Your migran must be coming from bad chamealon owners . Please don't take that as I'm being rude to you I'm absolutely not . I just understand the frustration. I only have about a pinky worth of care and knowledge compared to you .

No, I didn't take it as rude. I must be getting a migraine--I'm starting to have trouble seeing. I get really cranky with a migraine.

 

[Kristen Wilkins]

No, I didn't take it as rude. I must be getting a migraine--I'm starting to have trouble seeing. I get really cranky with a migraine.

hope you feel better soon . Migraines are awful .

 

[jajeanpierre]

Pictures would be very helpful. I would suggest you take copies of those pictures to an EXPERIENCED reptile vet, and explain his condition to him/her. See if they can give you any guess as to how much you will be looking at spending in order to get him healthy again. Ask the vet if he thinks the cham has a good prognosis, or not. I would only buy him if the vet thinks he can be saved. Don't forget that there may be other things that you can't see, such as organ damage, MBD, etc. I understand that the initial purchase will be very pricey, but please consider the vet costs you may be taking on both immediately and in the future. If the money aspect of the situation is too uncertain, I would strongly suggest turning away. I know that sounds harsh, but let's face it-most of us (generalized observation of the USA) are barely scraping by as it is. So, if the vet thinks he has a chance, try to talk the pet store down for AT LEAST the cost of 2 vet visits. If they won't, I would leave your name and number with them to consider their options, and hopefully they will contact you after they realize how much money and reputation they will loose again. Obviously they are not good at running a business.aybe they will pull their head out of their you-know-where! And if not, it wasn't meant to be, but take comfort in knowing that you did everything you could do. The world works in mysterious ways, and who knows what the future holds.

I know you mean well. I know you are writing this with the best of intentions, but....

1. No responsible reptile vet will ever give an opinion of an animal s/he has never seen for someone who isn't a client.

2. If the vet were to give an opinion from a photo, there are a few problems, first, the photo might not be of any value, and second, the person might not have the knowledge/observational skills to correctly describe what they think they are seeing. For example, I have several quads that when you stick a camera in their face or even hold them, they will pull back their eyes and they look like they are severely ill.

3. The vet can't give a prognosis based on a picture. I can save some pretty mangled wild caughts. (Read my recent thread "The Little Quad That Could https://www.chameleonforums.com/threads/the-little-quad-that-could.155101/#post-1323515) Can this novice? Highly unlikely. The prognosis is more dependent on who has the animal rather than it is on the animal's condition.

4. Except for obvious health issues, few reptile vets can diagnose an ill chameleon unless they are guided where to look. A deathly ill animal--hours away from death--will often appear quite healthy and vigorous for an exam. Vets actually don't know all that much about the ins and outs of rehabbing unhealthy chameleons, certainly less than I would have expected. It makes sense, though. They deal with critical medical situations, not husbandry other than parroting some information they have read. They rarely have ever kept them. A serious herpetologist or a zoo with an extensive reptile collection or a vet that cares for a zoo's reptile collection would be the best resources and be able to give an opinion.

The OP is wanting CF members to buy him/her a chameleon s/he has coveted for six months for an exorbitant price. $500 for the chameleon,$200 for the cage, $150 for a misting system and how much for a vet? I see a $1000 scam here, but with GoFundMe, it could be $5000.

 

[D4saken1]

So I got an update. Apparently this guy was on consignment from someone they called a "friend" and he is just trying to get his money back out of him.

They noticed the issues and said after finding this guy a home they wont do business with him again. (Which I believe after a long talk). I have made the offer of 400 USD for him which is high but with the consignment it just is sadly.

The cage issue. He was in a 4ftx2ftx2ft cage but there shop is small and he wanted to be near the light so apparently during the day he is near the light and uses a bigger cage in the back at night due to his preference.

They said they had him on supplements and calcium and have been feeding him more fatty worms.

I explained to them what I thought was going on after their story since they ended up giving me all this info when I came to talk about lowering the price. Now they could be lying but I spent several time digging again and things seem better than I thought. Basically when you look for bad you find bad and biased people.

Tl;Dr basically I assumed (ass out of u and me) and while the commissioner may be bad the store seems to be okay.

I admit I let my animal injustice warrior take over too soon and I was afraid of talking to them if the case was it was their animal.

I dunno, I'm an ass, sorry guys.

 

[D4saken1]

Woah I didn't mean for there to be a fight. I was in the wrong and I mentioned it's sketchy and last night before your posts I did delete the funding thing. (The link is dead - though I assume you will think it was because of your post and that's fine I cannot change that. And the request was 500 never more ((if you saw it before the delete)), any person is allowed to use their discretion. And I am glad you did and I'm glad I pulled my head out of my ass)

I realized even if my intentions are good they look shady at best and I figured I'd work it out myself and change the game plan. Then I went in and started a dialog and got a lot of info I didn't expect and felt horrible.

The person who they have it from on consignment will not be dealt with in the future (though of course words are words).

I am not experienced in ownership. And I did the best I could from what I saw and research from what I felt were red flags. I am a reptile and snake owner and I planned to get into chameleons this spring when this whole situation arose.

I apologise to the community and intentions aside (which no one knows but me so I guess there is that) I handled things wrong and I admit it.

I also apologise for any arguments this started. He was under cared for (the shop even said so and they have pet chameleons and been sellers for years before I knew them - I looked).

I'll keep coming back with diolog to any replies forward and if I get him I will post updates and images.

 

[Remkon]

I am curious, where do you get your panthers from? Especially for less than $300 each?

I'm in the Netherlands
I bought mine for 175€ and it wasn't one of the cheapest around either... They are 150€ on average I think.

 

[D4saken1]

There are some rep

Pictures would be very helpful. I would suggest you take copies of those pictures to an EXPERIENCED reptile vet, and explain his condition to him/her. See if they can give you any guess as to how much you will be looking at spending in order to get him healthy again. Ask the vet if he thinks the cham has a good prognosis, or not. I would only buy him if the vet thinks he can be saved. Don't forget that there may be other things that you can't see, such as organ damage, MBD, etc. I understand that the initial purchase will be very pricey, but please consider the vet costs you may be taking on both immediately and in the future. If the money aspect of the situation is too uncertain, I would strongly suggest turning away. I know that sounds harsh, but let's face it-most of us (generalized observation of the USA) are barely scraping by as it is. So, if the vet thinks he has a chance, try to talk the pet store down for AT LEAST the cost of 2 vet visits. If they won't, I would leave your name and number with them to consider their options, and hopefully they will contact you after they realize how much money and reputation they will loose again. Obviously they are not good at running a business.aybe they will pull their head out of their you-know-where! And if not, it wasn't meant to be, but take comfort in knowing that you did everything you could do. The world works in mysterious ways, and who knows what the future holds.

I will take pictures and show him and progress if I can get him for 400. Going to be a month or so if the consignment guy agrees but after rectifying my bias and assumptions I feel confident that he will at least be recovering by the time I have his setup and paid him off. I am just glad that after the recieved him they have decided not to get their supply from this breeder or sell his animals on consignment again.

 

[D4saken1]

I am curious, where do you get your panthers from? Especially for less than $300 each?

There are some reputable sellers online and many local stores here get them from good breeders and sell from about 150 females to 250 male. Some sires definitely cost more due to being proven and their lineage. Or so from what I have noticed.

 

[D4saken1]

@D4saken1 I find your post beyond the pale.

You are actually expecting strangers to give you--a stranger--money to BUY an overpriced and possibly failing chameleon. Outrageous!

First, this is no rescue--THIS IS A PURCHASE. Whether the animal is healthy or ill is irrelevant. The animal is FOR SALE. You are asking whether you should PURCHASE it. No rescue involved. You supposedly fell in love with this animal when you first saw it six months ago. Don't expect strangers to buy what you want for you.

The second point is whether or not it is neglected or even ill. I've bought lots of chameleons that were in pretty rough shape. THEY WERE NEVER RESCUES--THEY WERE PURCHASES. I just picked out a newly imported animal for someone that kept its eyes closed, too. That animal is thriving.

You mention that you have handled many chameleons but nowhere do I read that you have actually owned one. Hmmmmm.... You make all kinds of diagnoses and observations about its behavior with no chameleon-keeping experience.

Hey, I want to rescue a few newly imported O'Shaughnessy chameleons. Maybe I can get CF members to buy them for me.

If you want to buy it, buy it. Don't come begging other people to fund your purchases. What a scam!

Sorry I didn't reply to you directly. I went from the bottom up and made my two larger posts. I get what you are saying and I agree. And that's why I took it down after talking to them, honestly even though it can be seen as a lie to you I honestly didn't think much about how it looked and let my concern go over my head and made a jerk out of myself in more than one way. And maybe if I stick around and show that I am in fact in this for the animal or even if I have to pass and get a different chameleon in the spring, I hope at some point to show the real me and not the image this whole thing put out there.

Honestly thank you for being the voice of reason. If I hadn't taken my post down before I admit your words would have made me see what I was doing and the appearance I showed.

 

[jajeanpierre]

Sorry I didn't reply to you directly. I went from the bottom up and made my two larger posts. I get what you are saying and I agree. And that's why I took it down after talking to them, honestly even though it can be seen as a lie to you I honestly didn't think much about how it looked and let my concern go over my head and made a jerk out of myself in more than one way. And maybe if I stick around and show that I am in fact in this for the animal or even if I have to pass and get a different chameleon in the spring, I hope at some point to show the real me and not the image this whole thing put out there.

Honestly thank you for being the voice of reason. If I hadn't taken my post down before I admit your words would have made me see what I was doing and the appearance I showed.

I'm super happy to hear you thought about what I said. You'll do just fine here.

The amount of money the consignor was asking was ridiculous, but I do understand your becoming emotionally involved.

I've had a few tug at my heart. @jpowell86 has a little sickly mellers baby he does not want because I decided I couldn't leave him to die at the importers. I knew he had a shot with Joel but no shot if I didn't get him out of there right then and there and get him under misters. (By the way, the term "rescue" never crossed my mind until just now as I was typing this. I bought him, I didn't rescue him, but yes, he probably would have died had I not bought him that very day.)

 

[D4saken1]

Got some good news. My funds are a bit in flux at the moment due to fighting a garnishment (we got it reversed yay).

But I talked to the owner just now and the offer of 400 was accepted. I need to put 200 down (I expected 100 or 25% but this is doable). I just need to get working on his cage and needs after this. I had a ball python coming in I was getting at the end of the month but since it's a friend who I recently did work for I can probably push it back (almost certain) and bring this guy home and raise him to be happy and healthy. I need to go do some more digging and add to my notebook because this is my first chameleon (I have a ball python and two beardies ATM) and I want to make his life happy healthy and long as possible.

I will get a picture tomorrow after I put down the deposit and reveal his name. It came when I first met the guy haha.

I am excited to join the chameleon brotherhood.

Edit:

Even if I can not push the Snake back my first priority is to this chameleon so no worries.

 

[jajeanpierre]

Got some good news. My funds are a bit in flux at the moment due to fighting a garnishment (we got it reversed yay).

But I talked to the owner just now and the offer of 400 was accepted. I need to put 200 down (I expected 100 or 25% but this is doable). I just need to get working on his cage and needs after this. I had a ball python coming in I was getting at the end of the month but since it's a friend who I recently did work for I can probably push it back (almost certain) and bring this guy home and raise him to be happy and healthy. I need to go do some more digging and add to my notebook because this is my first chameleon (I have a ball python and two beardies ATM) and I want to make his life happy healthy and long as possible.

I will get a picture tomorrow after I put down the deposit and reveal his name. It came when I first met the guy haha.

I am excited to join the chameleon brotherhood.

Edit:

Even if I can not push the Snake back my first priority is to this chameleon so no worries.

Congratulations on your new boy. I honestly think, the most important purchase for any pet chameleon is an automatic mister. And not a cheap one that breaks when it runs dry (which it will, believe me) like a Monsoon but something like a MistKing. The cheapest one is $130 and I would add about $20 or $25 of extras like a tube cutter, a spare nozzle, a ball valve and some extra tubing.

 

[D4saken1]

Congratulations on your new boy. I honestly think, the most important purchase for any pet chameleon is an automatic mister. And not a cheap one that breaks when it runs dry (which it will, believe me) like a Monsoon but something like a MistKing. The cheapest one is $130 and I would add about $20 or $25 of extras like a tube cutter, a spare nozzle, a ball valve and some extra tubing.

Good to know. So basically hand misting isn't viable like with bearded dragons? (who of course are quite drier).

Would I be able to get away with hand misting for say a month? I'm not looking to bargain brand it of course I just need to get him set up fast.

Does the 48x24x24 seem like the best cage size for him? Honestly I will let him be out as much as is healthy and safe for him so I wasn't sure if I should do. 36*24*24.

I was looking at diy cages as I dig into his requirements and needs.

 

[D4saken1]

I moved the discussion to a new thread about setup.

https://www.chameleonforums.com/threads/first-timer-adult-panther-male-setup.155149/

 

[Carlton]

There are some rep


I will take pictures and show him and progress if I can get him for 400. Going to be a month or so if the consignment guy agrees but after rectifying my bias and assumptions I feel confident that he will at least be recovering by the time I have his setup and paid him off. I am just glad that after the recieved him they have decided not to get their supply from this breeder or sell his animals on consignment again.

Personally I think its really sad you are paying $400 for a sick cham. His previous owner shouldn't be rewarded for dumping him (getting his money out of him is disgusting given that he didn't "rate" good care) and the shop shouldn't be rewarded for continuing to treat him badly. He could be an older animal or have permanent organ damage that shortens his life if he does recover. I understand where you are coming from of course, but that is a huge price to pay for a sick cham even a beauty like that. I hope the vet bills don't break the bank!