Sinfulintent
New Member
Thanks I'll ask about it!
Eye bulging and closed.
- Thread starter Sinfulintent
- Start date
Sinfulintent
New Member
Yes I could do that Kate! Luckily all my brances are on those weird little suction cup thingys so it's not a problem to change around a little bit. Also good idea on the towel! I've only seen him fall twice so far but it's only a few inches and he gets right back up, but the first time he did it you shoulda seen my face! 
Lovereps
Avid Member
Kate, my Reptivite does not contain D3. It is available with or without it.Really glad you are seeing an improvement.
http://lllreptile.com/store/catalog...-vitamins/-/zoo-med-reptivite-without-d3-2oz/
Kate
Avid Member
In post 30 the op said he had bought Reptivite with d3 and vit a on the recommendation from vet. I don't use it so it is useful for me to know it comes with and without. Thanks.
fluxlizard
Avid Member
I use reptivite, but I also supplement a bit more than most here on the forums.
I use rep-cal with d3 a couple times a week for growing chams, reptivite 1x per week. Adults I cut back a bit.
There is a lot of IMO needless fear about too much d3 and a for chams like panthers and veileds here on the forums. I used to use the rep-cal with d3 every feeding, and did this for over a decade when my chameleons were indoors. I produced literally thousands of baby veileds and panthers alone in that time, had access to several veterinarians during that time, I never found a problem that could be attributed to oversupplementation. I'm not saying do what I did, as I now feel that was more than necessary and not such a great idea either, but there is a difference between moderate supplementation and under supplementation. My experience indicates that very very probably there is a larger margin of safety than most here seem to believe.
If too much of something is bad, it doesn't follow that too little is better.
I feel like a broken record because I always say this when I participate in these threads where undersupplementation likely played a role.
I keep saying it because fear of supplementation keeps playing a role in preventable problems. In my opinion we see too many problems here on the forums that can in fact be attributed to undersupplementation. Just looking today I see a few threads at a glance including this thread.
We hardly ever see problems from oversupplementation. In fact, very possibly never- I don't recall seeing one. Maybe I'm wrong, but even if there are a few, there are problems almost every day from undersupplementation.
I don't think the vet was right about the cause being dehydration in this case. Closed eyes would be extreme dehydration and swollen eyes would be nothing to do with dehydration whatsoever. But I do think the reptivite with d3 was a step in the right direction for the cure.
It is sad to see threads like this. This was a preventable problem for baby veileds. To prevent- use a warm basking area in the 90s, allow the enclosure to dry out between watering (damp conditions can cause problems that result in closed, swollen eyes), use calcium with d3 at least once a week if not twice a week and use vit a at least every other week if not every week.
I also think there are number of mild cases that probably go unnoticed by inexperienced owners. Over the summer I was given a group of several adult veiled chameleons hatched and grown by someone local who had no idea that most of them had signs of mild bone deformities from mild mbd probably when they were growing. This included casque deformities that were fairly obvious to my eyes. When I pointed out the problems, I was informed that they followed the schedule here on the forums...
I myself had a problem with eye problems in a female panther after trying to elminate the use of vit a as recommended here on the forums at that time that went away within a few days of using a vit a supplement after failing to correct with antibiotic ointment.
That's not to say that some people cannot get away with less of all of the above factors- less heat, less d3, less vit a. And not to say that might be better when the person is skilled enough. Maybe, might- I don't know if I'm convinced that the end result is better or just as good as moderate supplementation or not as good. Jury is out for me.
But one thing I am convinced of from 20 years experience with lots of chameleons- the average Joe is going to have a much safer experience for their pet giving d3 a couple times a week and vit a one time per week for rapidly growing veileds and panthers and then cutting back after they are grown.
I use rep-cal with d3 a couple times a week for growing chams, reptivite 1x per week. Adults I cut back a bit.
There is a lot of IMO needless fear about too much d3 and a for chams like panthers and veileds here on the forums. I used to use the rep-cal with d3 every feeding, and did this for over a decade when my chameleons were indoors. I produced literally thousands of baby veileds and panthers alone in that time, had access to several veterinarians during that time, I never found a problem that could be attributed to oversupplementation. I'm not saying do what I did, as I now feel that was more than necessary and not such a great idea either, but there is a difference between moderate supplementation and under supplementation. My experience indicates that very very probably there is a larger margin of safety than most here seem to believe.
If too much of something is bad, it doesn't follow that too little is better.
I feel like a broken record because I always say this when I participate in these threads where undersupplementation likely played a role.
I keep saying it because fear of supplementation keeps playing a role in preventable problems. In my opinion we see too many problems here on the forums that can in fact be attributed to undersupplementation. Just looking today I see a few threads at a glance including this thread.
We hardly ever see problems from oversupplementation. In fact, very possibly never- I don't recall seeing one. Maybe I'm wrong, but even if there are a few, there are problems almost every day from undersupplementation.
I don't think the vet was right about the cause being dehydration in this case. Closed eyes would be extreme dehydration and swollen eyes would be nothing to do with dehydration whatsoever. But I do think the reptivite with d3 was a step in the right direction for the cure.
It is sad to see threads like this. This was a preventable problem for baby veileds. To prevent- use a warm basking area in the 90s, allow the enclosure to dry out between watering (damp conditions can cause problems that result in closed, swollen eyes), use calcium with d3 at least once a week if not twice a week and use vit a at least every other week if not every week.
I also think there are number of mild cases that probably go unnoticed by inexperienced owners. Over the summer I was given a group of several adult veiled chameleons hatched and grown by someone local who had no idea that most of them had signs of mild bone deformities from mild mbd probably when they were growing. This included casque deformities that were fairly obvious to my eyes. When I pointed out the problems, I was informed that they followed the schedule here on the forums...
I myself had a problem with eye problems in a female panther after trying to elminate the use of vit a as recommended here on the forums at that time that went away within a few days of using a vit a supplement after failing to correct with antibiotic ointment.
That's not to say that some people cannot get away with less of all of the above factors- less heat, less d3, less vit a. And not to say that might be better when the person is skilled enough. Maybe, might- I don't know if I'm convinced that the end result is better or just as good as moderate supplementation or not as good. Jury is out for me.
But one thing I am convinced of from 20 years experience with lots of chameleons- the average Joe is going to have a much safer experience for their pet giving d3 a couple times a week and vit a one time per week for rapidly growing veileds and panthers and then cutting back after they are grown.
Sinfulintent
New Member
Well, update on Karma considering I just took him to the vet. He's lost some weight not much due to the not eating thing...Eyes are still closed but he does open them from time to time for a minute or so then closes them right back up and goes back to blindley wondering....
The vets injected him with calcium and vit a under the skin ( he had 2 lumps on the side of him for a few seconds because of the liquid, looked cool/scary)... On top of the Vetrogen eye cream (gentamicin sulfate???) They also want me to give him Ca Glubionate (liquid calcium??) and Baytril (antibiotic??)
They also gave me something I'm not too sure about.. They gave me "a/d Canine/Feline critical care" food link for it here: http://www.hillspet.com/products/pd-feline-ad-caninefeline-critical-care-canned.html and suggested .5-1ml a day depending on if he'll take it all and to come back in 48 hours if he doesn't eat any of it.
Anythoughts on all of this?
The vets injected him with calcium and vit a under the skin ( he had 2 lumps on the side of him for a few seconds because of the liquid, looked cool/scary)... On top of the Vetrogen eye cream (gentamicin sulfate???
) They also want me to give him Ca Glubionate (liquid calcium??) and Baytril (antibiotic??)They also gave me something I'm not too sure about.. They gave me "a/d Canine/Feline critical care" food link for it here: http://www.hillspet.com/products/pd-feline-ad-caninefeline-critical-care-canned.html and suggested .5-1ml a day depending on if he'll take it all and to come back in 48 hours if he doesn't eat any of it.
Anythoughts on all of this?
D
DavidBuchan
Guest
I answered a couple of questions in red. As for the canned food, I would personally just smash up some well-gutloaded crickets (into a paste). Dog or cat food is never the best for chameleons. Use that in a syringe for force feeding if you are doing that. He won't likely eat the canned food without a bit of gentle persuasion.On top of the Vetrogen eye cream (gentamicin sulfate???
They also gave me something I'm not too sure about.. They gave me "a/d Canine/Feline critical care" food link for it here: http://www.hillspet.com/products/pd-feline-ad-caninefeline-critical-care-canned.html and suggested .5-1ml a day depending on if he'll take it all and to come back in 48 hours if he doesn't eat any of it.
Anythoughts on all of this?
If you are force feeding then pull gently on his chin skin until he opens up-make sure the syringe is quite far back in his mouth, as his windpipe is in the middle of his mouth.
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Sinfulintent
New Member
Thanks David, I'll try crushing bugs first not sure about giving him cat food, I'm talking to a vet friend of mine they say they give it to cats/dogs when they are recovering from illness to get them to start eating again, she didn't know chams could eat it though, though her vets are only dogs/cats no reptiles or exotics...
Few pictures of our trip
Edit:
Home now, He has bruises from the injections Right above his stripe thing..
Few pictures of our trip
Edit:
Home now, He has bruises from the injections
Right above his stripe thing..
Sinfulintent
New Member
Crushing bugs half worked..maybe? He kind of half ate 2 crushed up crickets.. any advice on accomplishing him eating more of them? I have one of the a syringe but it's a pain to get him to open his mouth for it, advice on opening his mouth?
Lovereps
Avid Member
I disagree with you and believe that the warnings are quite valid, so I have quoted a number of vets warning about organ damage caused by oversupplementing with D3.
No one advocates depriving chams of the necessary nutrients but just as too little is bad, too much is just as bad.
It is far more obvious to see the symptoms of undersupplemention and I believe that we are most often not recognizing oversupplemention damage.
It appears that it would likely not be recognized as the cause of death without a necropsy.
There may actually be equal or greater numbers of chams actually perishing from oversupplementation than from undersupplementation.
All of the following are quotes from veterinarians about D3 and chameleons.
There are plenty more of these and I didn't even bother with the vitamin A issue, as I think these support the argument to be wary of oversupplementing:
"excessive use of D3 causes severe liver issues and premature death"
"Excess vitamin D3 supplementation -- especially in combination with calcium -- may result in organ toxicity. Metastatic calcification and gout are common results. Gular edema is a common clinical sign. "
"Gular edema is a common clinical sign of organ dysfunction in chameleons."
"Treatment for hypervitaminosis is difficult because the clinical disease is usually well advanced by the time the chameleon is presented (ex. gular edema with renal failure). "
"With adequate UVB very little Vitamin D needs to be given orally and it is possible to cause toxicity with excessive oral administration"
"If D3 is consistently given dietarily, the pituitary will not be able to regulate calcitriol (active D3) that quickly and spikes of hypercalcemia will most probably occur. Over time, hypervitaminosis D and hypercalcemia will cause clinical signs of soft tissue calcification, depression, anorexia, excessive drinking, urination, and weight loss."
"High levels of Vitamin D3 and calcium combined will lead to toxicity of their organs."
This last comment was posted on a different forum and is what someone reports that their vet has told them:
"My vet has done plenty of lizard, gecko, and chameleon Necropsies in which it was determined the cause of death was massive over-calcification of the soft tissues, so this isn't "just talk". My vet's website (Dr. Mark Burgess) with all his info available = Southwest Animal Hospital"
http://www.caudata.org/forum/f1-general-topics/f5-general-discussion-news-members/88053-calcium-d3-issue.html
http://www.swanimalhospital.net/html/thedoctors.html#doc1
Sources:
http://www.uvma.org/chameleon/vitamind3.htm
http://www.vetlocator.com/newsarticles/pet_lizard_conditions.php
http://www.vulcanveterinary.com/Care of Chameleons.pdf
http://www.gregrichdvm.com/pdfs/care/chameleon-care-sheet.pdf
http://www.chameleonnews.com/07FebWheelock.html
http://www.ivanalfonso.com/2011/06/calcium-deficiencies-the-secret-to-avoid-them/
http://www.seavs.com/lizards/chameleons.html
fluxlizard
Avid Member
Thank you for responding to me.
I actually kicked myself a little about this post over the weekend because I don't want people to get the opposite idea and supplement as much as I supplemented back in the 90s when I had lots of chameleons. I don't want to encourage that.
I also didn't mention that I had other factors at play most of the 90s besides supplementing every feeding.
For example, I generally fed enough to last a couple of days for each feeding. So there were always leftovers running around and rep-cal falls off after about 20-30 minutes or so for the most part. So although a few would be eaten right away m, by day 2 insects eaten would have no supplementation. So every feeding supplemented isn't exactly an accurate description I suppose. Even later the day of the feeding, the amount of rep-cal left on insects would be very minimal to non-existant.
Also, For most of the 90s I had minimal UVB (vitalites) or no UVB (was told at lighting store that chroma 50s were exactly the same as vitalites in output- they were not. I actually kept using chroma 50s until a few years ago when I found chameleon forums LOL. I didn't have MBD as a result though which I think is interesting).
Also for most of the 90s I kept my chameleons outdoors during the summer and only calcium was offered at that time, not D3. So there were months at a stretch each year without dietary d3.
So we are back to the question, how much is safe? Along with that question, I'd just put forth how much is enough to make a positive difference? If someone uses a very small amount of d3 or vit a once a month for example, my contention is that for most of the month, it is the same as using none at all because it will be used up long before the next dose.
Well, in my case, I actually had casual necropsies (visual exam only, no lab work) throughout the 90s. My father was a veterinarian. He never found evidence of oversupplementation in my animals. I'm speaking from experience, not from something I've read only...
Maybe. Maybe not. I don't know and neither do you or anyone else.
But what I do know is that I can log on to the chameleon forums and see problems that are highly likely to be related to poor supplementation every day. Some of these problems turn up from active members who have tried their best to follow advice here.
Eye problems, tongue problems, reproductive problems like egg binding, bone problems- even prolapse.
Also, calcium itself is toxic in excess.
Here is something off of scott stahl's http://seavs.com/lizards/chameleons.htmlwebsite. He is pretty well known in the reptile vet world.
So- that's my thinking and where I am coming from.
But I realise some of my thinking is dated and needs updating. Even Stahl's info thing above might be out of date with what he knows now.
This quote you give is especially interesting to me and I would like to have it's source so I can learn more.
I'm not claiming to have all the answers and complete understanding.
And I realize all problems are not preventable in spite of the best care- if they were we would all live a lot longer.
But I think depending on age of the veiled or panther chameleon- once or twice a week with d3 and once every week or two with vit a will prevent many of these recurring problems that pop up over and over on the forums on a regular basis and is unlikely to be excessive and harm the chameleon.
I actually kicked myself a little about this post over the weekend because I don't want people to get the opposite idea and supplement as much as I supplemented back in the 90s when I had lots of chameleons. I don't want to encourage that.
I also didn't mention that I had other factors at play most of the 90s besides supplementing every feeding.
For example, I generally fed enough to last a couple of days for each feeding. So there were always leftovers running around and rep-cal falls off after about 20-30 minutes or so for the most part. So although a few would be eaten right away m, by day 2 insects eaten would have no supplementation. So every feeding supplemented isn't exactly an accurate description I suppose. Even later the day of the feeding, the amount of rep-cal left on insects would be very minimal to non-existant.
Also, For most of the 90s I had minimal UVB (vitalites) or no UVB (was told at lighting store that chroma 50s were exactly the same as vitalites in output- they were not. I actually kept using chroma 50s until a few years ago when I found chameleon forums LOL. I didn't have MBD as a result though which I think is interesting).
Also for most of the 90s I kept my chameleons outdoors during the summer and only calcium was offered at that time, not D3. So there were months at a stretch each year without dietary d3.
So we are back to the question, how much is safe? Along with that question, I'd just put forth how much is enough to make a positive difference? If someone uses a very small amount of d3 or vit a once a month for example, my contention is that for most of the month, it is the same as using none at all because it will be used up long before the next dose.
Well, in my case, I actually had casual necropsies (visual exam only, no lab work) throughout the 90s. My father was a veterinarian. He never found evidence of oversupplementation in my animals. I'm speaking from experience, not from something I've read only...
Maybe. Maybe not. I don't know and neither do you or anyone else.
But what I do know is that I can log on to the chameleon forums and see problems that are highly likely to be related to poor supplementation every day. Some of these problems turn up from active members who have tried their best to follow advice here.
Eye problems, tongue problems, reproductive problems like egg binding, bone problems- even prolapse.
Also, calcium itself is toxic in excess.
Here is something off of scott stahl's http://seavs.com/lizards/chameleons.htmlwebsite. He is pretty well known in the reptile vet world.
So- that's my thinking and where I am coming from.
But I realise some of my thinking is dated and needs updating. Even Stahl's info thing above might be out of date with what he knows now.
This quote you give is especially interesting to me and I would like to have it's source so I can learn more.
I'm not claiming to have all the answers and complete understanding.
And I realize all problems are not preventable in spite of the best care- if they were we would all live a lot longer.
But I think depending on age of the veiled or panther chameleon- once or twice a week with d3 and once every week or two with vit a will prevent many of these recurring problems that pop up over and over on the forums on a regular basis and is unlikely to be excessive and harm the chameleon.
Sinfulintent
New Member
Lots of good information on supplementation but now I'm confused lol. I should probably not dust my feeders while he is on his calcium spplement right? :\ I have been dusting 1 or 2 of them but not all of them.
Update on him: Still hasn't opened his eyes, how ever, since he's been getting his vitamins and medicines he has been moving a lot more, and since I've been force feeding him he's been getting A LOT stronger. Hard to get him from his branch if he doesn't want to and opening his mouth so that I can get him his medicine.
I'm opening his mouth by lightly grabbing his..."chin??"? area and pulling down as I saw the vet do. It's usually enough to pull his lips down slightly and get his mouth open so I can coax the syringe in his mouth, but yesterday as I was trying to attempt doing this with his feeders(the only way I know how to get him to eat) I couldn't get his mouth open a little bit! It's been easy before but now that he's getting stronger he's definitely putting up a fight. So as much of a pain in the a$$ as it is to get his mouth open I am reasonably happy about it because that means he's feeling better right?
lol. I should probably not dust my feeders while he is on his calcium spplement right? :\ I have been dusting 1 or 2 of them but not all of them. Update on him: Still hasn't opened his eyes, how ever, since he's been getting his vitamins and medicines he has been moving a lot more, and since I've been force feeding him he's been getting A LOT stronger. Hard to get him from his branch if he doesn't want to and opening his mouth so that I can get him his medicine.
I'm opening his mouth by lightly grabbing his..."chin??"? area and pulling down as I saw the vet do. It's usually enough to pull his lips down slightly and get his mouth open so I can coax the syringe in his mouth, but yesterday as I was trying to attempt doing this with his feeders(the only way I know how to get him to eat) I couldn't get his mouth open a little bit! It's been easy before but now that he's getting stronger he's definitely putting up a fight. So as much of a pain in the a$$ as it is to get his mouth open I am reasonably happy about it because that means he's feeling better right?
fluxlizard
Avid Member
probably not, but check with vet. I don't know what is in your calcium supplement. Eye problems are often a reflection of inadequate vit a for example, so if that isn't in the supplement you are using you may need a little...
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C
Chameleonic
Guest
All agreed
And not to forget that vitamin a in excess can also cause eye problems
.
Sinfulintent
New Member
Haha great, so I have to find a balance between too much and not enough. great! I'll have to check what I have to see about the vit A, might be another trip to a pet store or online shopping! After his vit A shots he definitely seemed to open his eyes a little more so that really may be the problem, I'll be looking into this as soon as I get home!
Lovereps
Avid Member
You're quite welcome.
I enjoy when people share their thoughts and experiences without being combatative.
People sharing their ideas make the forum interesting and helpful.
Neither of us is claiming to have all the answers.
It is at least partly due to cham owners sharing what has worked and what has not that chameleon care has advanced to where it is now--rather than being a virtual death sentence, as cham keeping once was.
It is a proven scientific fact that both under and oversupplementing are harmful.
It is also true that nutritional deficiencies are not always the result of undersupplementation.
Internal parasites can cause severe malnutrition.
Lack of UVB, low temperatures, stress and other factors can also do the same.
That's exactly why I replied.
IMHO, the danger of leaving your post unchallenged was that it might encourage at least some people to oversupplement to a degree that could be very harmful.
Though I only provided quotes on excessive D3 from vets and the links to where I found that info, there are also plenty about the serious dangers of too much vitamin A.
That may very well be a huge factor in why the supplementing schedule that you used then did not harm your chams.
This is the great unknown.
Just look at what is known about proper nutrition for humans--a far more intensively studied field than reptile nutrition.
Research on human nutrition is still ongoing and there are new discoveries being made from time to time, despite decades, if not centuries of scientific study.
Nutrition is just one area where hobbiests' successes and failures, when shared with others, can help us to arrive at the answer.
How much is enough without being too much and which factors alter the specific nutritional requirements of any given chameleon?
There are many variables to consider and when combined with a lack of specific scientific knowledge, no one has the answer.
Over the years, through trial and error, it has become apparent that the supplements needed by a baby cham are different from juveniles and juveniles' needs differ from adults.
Perhaps, as with humans, the ability to absorb nutrients declines with advancing age and we are again undersupplementing our older chams?
The lack of scientific studies hurts us all as chameleon caretakers and that is why we rely on the experiences of others--both good and bad--to guide us.
You lucky dog! How nice to have Dad at the ready for any problems that cropped up. From the sound of things, the care that your chams had did work out well for them. Perhaps it was due to the factors already mentioned.
This was a hypothesis, not a statement of fact.
It is nothing short of heartbreaking to read peoples' sad stories of how they followed the often incorrect instructions they had been given and ended up with a disabled, ill or dead pet chameleon whom they cared about deeply.
As for those whose chams' nutritional deficiencies occurred despite the "usual forum schedules", there may be other factors at play.
Are the vitamins being used long past their expiration dates?
Were all or just a couple of insects dusted? Was enough dust used?
Did the cham eat the insects while the dust was still clinging to them or were they dusted and put in the enclosure in the AM and the cham devoured them long after the dust fell off?
Are the UVB lights too old to give off enough UVB?
Are temperatures too low to support proper absorption of nutrients?
Is there a broad enough variety of insects in the diet?
Are the feeders gutloaded?
Is the animal stressed in some way?
"Excessive vitamin A supplementation may result in interference of vitamin D3 metabolism, leading to MBD.",according to Dr Stahl.
Internal parasites can cause severe malnutrition.
As I said before, it is not desirable to give too little any more than too much--although the safety margin may or may not be greater with slight undersupplementation than with oversupplementation.
I don't pretend to have all the answers.
More research is needed, as well as experienced keepers sharing what has and what has not worked for them.
Fluxlizard, you provided me with a link that I had provided in my first post on this.
You seem to have missed that I had provided links in the earlier post to every source that I had quoted, so here that one is again
:http://www.chameleonnews.com/07FebWheelock.html
It is from Matthew Wheelock D.V.M. whom I believe is also well regarded in the world of reptile vets.
Some may also recognize him as a past forum contributor.
I am sure that in addition to how often each supplement is used, it also depends on which brand of supplements is used, how heavily the feeders are dusted, which feeders are used, the ambient temperatures, how much water the chameleons have access to and how much a particular cham drinks.
Age, montane or lowland cham type and breeding females also must be taken into consideration when figuring out how much of each supplement is needed for any particular cham.
Who knows, maybe the exposure to D3 from lights or sunlight even affords some protection from excessive supplements with either vitamin A or D3?
I suspect that malnutrition and oversupplementation both account for many illnesses and shortened chameleon lifespans, even if it is not always apparent as the cause.
Now, I am not asserting that these are the only causes but I do believe that both are very significant and that oversupplementation may be much more common than we presently recognize.
Unfortunately, the jury is still out on the exact nutritional requirements of chameleons, so we have to work with what is known and add to it with what scientists and cham owners discover.
ataraxia
Avid Member
Sinfulintent: I would place a bet your veiled has a infection or some sort of illness. If i have gathered from your post you have taken this chameleon to the vet twice now. I know you have spent a chunk of money at this point but you should try to find one that is educated with chameleons specifically.
Personally i would see if the vet can see if there is anything to culture from the eyes.
Have you had a fecal done?
This is not a treatment to cure the eyes but maybe something to give a little relief.
1.You can buy saline solution (just like what we use) from just about anywhere. Squirt the eye opening on the turret, this will open the lid and force fluid in the area. understand it cant be the greatest having a stream of fluid shot at your eye. So use your best judgement with length of time.
2.I would also recommend long warm showers (15 minutes or so).
Personally i would see if the vet can see if there is anything to culture from the eyes.
Have you had a fecal done?
This is not a treatment to cure the eyes but maybe something to give a little relief.
1.You can buy saline solution (just like what we use) from just about anywhere. Squirt the eye opening on the turret, this will open the lid and force fluid in the area. understand it cant be the greatest having a stream of fluid shot at your eye. So use your best judgement with length of time.
2.I would also recommend long warm showers (15 minutes or so).
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