Eye problem please help nothing works

[ahood]

Chameleon Info:

• Your Chameleon - Ambilobe Panther Chameleon, male, almost three years old, has been in my care entire life
• Handling - handle about every other day
• Feeding - feed phoenix worms, dubia roaches, and superworms. Amount varies: sometimes eats 15 insects a day, sometimes 5. There is no schedule. He has food constantly available. I gutload with carrots.
• Supplements - I dust all insects everyday with Rep Cal Calcium (no phosphorus, no D3), and dust half of meal 1-2 times a week with Zoo Med's Reptivite.
• Watering - There is a humidifier in the cage that runs for two hours at a time all day long (distilled water). I offer water multiple times a day with a syringe.
• Fecal Description - Droppings are moist w/white and sometimes light/faint orange tint. Never been tested for parasites.
• History - Got MBD when he was little and broke a leg. I corrected this immediately and haven't had a problem with it since.

Cage Info:

• Cage Type - Reptibreeze XL: all screen 24X48X48
• Lighting - Arcadia D3 6% T8 Reptile Lamp 24" and a 100W ZOO MED PowerSun lights are on for 13 hours per day
• Temperature - Temps in cage range from 77 degrees F (cage floor) to 91 degrees F (highest basking spot). The lowest temp at night is 74 degrees F and these temps are measured with a Zilla clicker digital thermometer
• Humidity - I have a humidifier running every two hours all day and off at night. I don't actually have a humidity gage in the cage at the moment. I need to get one. My guess is that the humidity ranges from 70%-80% during the day and is at 50% at night.
• Plants - I do not have any live plants in the cage.
• Placement - The cage is now located in my bathroom on the counter. The top of the cage is probably about 7ft from the room floor.
• Location - North Carolina

Current Problem - My chameleon, Kiwi, has been having issues with his eyes for the past couple months. At first it was just one eye. He began keeping it closed much of the time and his pupil is very small in this eye. He also keeps it sucked in most of the time. He then began closing his other eye while in the cage, appearing as if he is sleeping (but I know he's not) The appearance of the other eye has remained normal (color, pupil size, etc, hasn't changed) I know his eyes are irritating him, because he tries to rub them on various items in his cage. He also rolls them a lot. I have taken him to a good vet in Raleigh, NC: Dr. Dan Johnson at Avian and Exotic Animal Care. First, we tried an antibiotic and anti-inflammatory. I administered the eye drops in his eyes as instructed: 3 times a day for 2 weeks. The drops had no effect. We then gave him a shot of Vitamin A and I changed his multivitamin to a multivitamin with active Vitamin A in it. We added another antibiotic by mouth (for a skin issue). The skin has drastically improved, but still no improvement on his eyes. I don't know what else to do. I've already spent $400 at the vet. Maybe go back and do an eye culture? I'm out of ideas and feel like the vets are too. He is eating and drinking normally so I wouldn't be as concerned about it, if it weren't for the fact that I know they are irritating him badly since he always tries to rub them on the vines in his cage.

 

[kinyonga]

Please post a recent photo or two of the chameleon and the cage.

 

[ahood]

Please post a recent photo or two of the chameleon and the cage.

 

[Niamh Collins]

My veiled chameleon sometimes has his eyes like that (looks like their popping out the sockets) and rubs them on branches in his cage or even my hand, and what I’ve heard is they do this to clean their eyes. And he also does this during shed so if your panther has recently shed maybe the skin is irritating his eyes. But seeing as his eyes have been bothering him for a few months I’m not too sure. I would recommend getting a humidity gage because the humidity might be too high and be the problem.(just a suggestion cause I’m not an expert).

 

[bobbydigital]

https://www.chameleonforums.com/thr...nced-keepers-please-share-your-wisdom.152159/

Maybe there is something that you will find useful in this thread. I hope you can get the issue taken care of.

 

[kelly_girl199]

Do you ever supplement Vit A? And you really need to gutload with more than just carrots.

 

[kelly_girl199]

Also I saw nothing about you misting his cage. They really need mist to clean out their eyes. And honestly humidifier don't really do a whole lot in terms of making drops or even keeping up humidity well enough. I know my chameleon acts up with his eyes when things are getting too dry. He kept itching and itching them and the vet said to up his humidity and he rarely does it any more. Since I started free ranging more often he has been itching his eyes more. So now I have to hand mist the surrounding plants and his free range once or twice while he is up there and it has helped. You need to be getting his feeders loaded with nice greens such as collards, mustard greens, and dandelion leaves along with some fresh fruits. Those will get him his PrOformed Vit A. Then supplement a Preformed Vit A witch he would be getting from eating animals out in the wild. Chicken, fish, etc would contain Preformed Vit A for example. I supplement with a 8,000UI Vit A gel cap once a month. Just one drop on a feeder. Also, getting him small lizards once or twice a month could supplement that as well.

 

[kelly_girl199]

Bee pollen is also a good natural Multivitamin.

 

[kelly_girl199]

i did just see you switched to vitamin with Vit A in it which is good.

 

[ahood]

My veiled chameleon sometimes has his eyes like that (looks like their popping out the sockets) and rubs them on branches in his cage or even my hand, and what I’ve heard is they do this to clean their eyes. And he also does this during shed so if your panther has recently shed maybe the skin is irritating his eyes. But seeing as his eyes have been bothering him for a few months I’m not too sure. I would recommend getting a humidity gage because the humidity might be too high and be the problem.(just a suggestion cause I’m not an expert).

I know it's not from the humidity being too high. Thank you for commenting. The humidity was too low for quite a while, and I recently increased the humidity (after the eye problem began). I've also had his eyes flushed twice, and the vet didn't see anything come out.

 

[ahood]

Also I saw nothing about you misting his cage. They really need mist to clean out their eyes. And honestly humidifier don't really do a whole lot in terms of making drops or even keeping up humidity well enough. I know my chameleon acts up with his eyes when things are getting too dry. He kept itching and itching them and the vet said to up his humidity and he rarely does it any more. Since I started free ranging more often he has been itching his eyes more. So now I have to hand mist the surrounding plants and his free range once or twice while he is up there and it has helped. You need to be getting his feeders loaded with nice greens such as collards, mustard greens, and dandelion leaves along with some fresh fruits. Those will get him his PrOformed Vit A. Then supplement a Preformed Vit A witch he would be getting from eating animals out in the wild. Chicken, fish, etc would contain Preformed Vit A for example. I supplement with a 8,000UI Vit A gel cap once a month. Just one drop on a feeder. Also, getting him small lizards once or twice a month could supplement that as well.

Thank you for commenting. I used to mist, but now don't because the humidifier produces so much moisture. I've also had his eyes flushed twice with no sign of any debris in them. He never used to roll his eyes or do maintenance on them at all, so this isn't normal. And yes, added the vitamin A. I was concerned about that at first and started putting beta carotene on his food until I found out that panthers cant actually synthesize it to produce vitamin A. I didn't want to give it to him myself because I was afraid of the toxicity. Idk I haven't seen any improvement at all after the vitamin A injection and adding it into his food. I am willing to try gutloading more just for his general health, but I feel like this is more than this. Like some kind of bacterial thing or something idk. I can see that his eyes are either painful or itchy.

 

[ahood]

https://www.chameleonforums.com/thr...nced-keepers-please-share-your-wisdom.152159/

Maybe there is something that you will find useful in this thread. I hope you can get the issue taken care of.

Thank you for the reference. I will check it out.

 

[Extensionofgreen]

If he is eating normally, than he can see, which is good. If he is rubbing his eyes on branches, it is an indication that they are dry or irritated and he needs mist to be able to wet his eyeballs and roll them around again the inside of the turrets. It’s not just debris that can cause them to need to “clean” their eyes. I suggest misting or showering at least twice a week for 20-30mins plus, each time. Continue with Vitamin A supplements. I agree that there needs to be more substantial gutloading as well. Maybe shoot @Venutus1 an email or give him a call and discuss your lighting with him to be certain nothing could be too intense or potentially malfunction and causing eye issues. Once the start, eye problems are hard to correct and sometimes wax and wane or persist for the life of the animal.
I’d pursue things further with the vet and ask him to contact more experience colleagues, if he/she doesn’t have the answers. What you’re describing is the start of potentially permanent problems, up to and including loss of sight, eventual decline, and possibly death or euthanasia. I wish you luck in find a resolution and you’ve probably received all of the advice that can be given here, because many people have been though this, with eye drops, Vitamin A shots, and so forth, with mixed results and seldom and accurate picture of the cause. I suspect Vitamin A to be a big part, but by the time symptoms show, due to the slower metabolism of reptiles, sensitivity of them to vitamins, and the changes that have already affected to body, by the time preformed A supplementation is implemented, it isn’t enough to reverse things, unless caught extremely early and rectified appropriately. Misting or showers are critical for eye health, also and nothing else can replace them for eye care.

 

[ahood]

If he is eating normally, than he can see, which is good. If he is rubbing his eyes on branches, it is an indication that they are dry or irritated and he needs mist to be able to wet his eyeballs and roll them around again the inside of the turrets. It’s not just debris that can cause them to need to “clean” their eyes. I suggest misting or showering at least twice a week for 20-30mins plus, each time. Continue with Vitamin A supplements. I agree that there needs to be more substantial gutloading as well. Maybe shoot @Venutus1 an email or give him a call and discuss your lighting with him to be certain nothing could be too intense or potentially malfunction and causing eye issues. Once the start, eye problems are hard to correct and sometimes wax and wane or persist for the life of the animal.
I’d pursue things further with the vet and ask him to contact more experience colleagues, if he/she doesn’t have the answers. What you’re describing is the start of potentially permanent problems, up to and including loss of sight, eventual decline, and possibly death or euthanasia. I wish you luck in find a resolution and you’ve probably received all of the advice that can be given here, because many people have been though this, with eye drops, Vitamin A shots, and so forth, with mixed results and seldom and accurate picture of the cause. I suspect Vitamin A to be a big part, but by the time symptoms show, due to the slower metabolism of reptiles, sensitivity of them to vitamins, and the changes that have already affected to body, by the time preformed A supplementation is implemented, it isn’t enough to reverse things, unless caught extremely early and rectified appropriately. Misting or showers are critical for eye health, also and nothing else can replace them for eye care.

Thank you for the contact! I will start with showers again and further increase Vitamin A intake as well as starting to gutload more. I hope I can get a hold of this!

 

[NickTide]

If there is plenty of moisture.... could there be something in the water source? Are you using tap water? if so, is it chlorinated? Is your water hard (hard water causes dry skin and eczema on people)? If I were you, I would try switching to some distilled water. If that fixes things, you could later experiment with allowing your tap water to sit out for 24 hours (or boil it) to dechlorinate and try again. If the condition returns then you will need to either buy water or find a better source at a friends house.

 

[NickTide]

If your water supply uses chloramine, letting it sit wont remove it. It take 20 minutes of boiling to remove it. Probably cheaper to buy water.
Most aquarium water conditioners remove chlorine and chloramine but I don't know if the chemical itself would be harmful. To remover chloramine chemically, it is to be broken down to chlorine and ammonia (if I remember correctly) then there is another chemical to neutralize the ammonia and remove the chlorine. That's a lot of chemicals that I'm not sure about.
Good carbon filtration will remove chloramine and chlorine from tap water but I'm not sure if a regular Britta type filter is efficient enough..

 

[Matt Vanilla Gorilla]

I work in a emergency room in a hospital. When people come in sick related to years and years of self abuse and bad habits they expect the doctor to walk in the door and suddenly for them to be cured! As a matter of fact some people ge real angry, cuss at the hospital staff and leave against medical advice when they are told that there is nothing quick we can do for them. It took years to destroy their bodies to this state and it will take years to fix it if they are lucky (and most people are not lucky and will now suffer for the rest of their lives!).

We humans still have a lot to learn about chameleons! We do not intend harm and we give them our best but it is so hard (if not impossible) to give them what they find in nature. It takes a long time for deficiencies to show up. By the time these deficiencies present as signs and symptoms quite a bit of damage is done. Some might be permanent, irreversible!

You have a very beautiful chameleon! I sure hope he gets better!

Feed him high quality food that is well gutloaded, make sure he gets his daily suplimentation as layed out in the forums, please keep him very well hydrated, make sure his lighting is perfect, make sure his cage is clean and make sure you reduce any stress hy may have!!!

Best of luck! I am rooting for your beautiful chameleon!!!!!

 

[ahood]

If your water supply uses chloramine, letting it sit wont remove it. It take 20 minutes of boiling to remove it. Probably cheaper to buy water.
Most aquarium water conditioners remove chlorine and chloramine but I don't know if the chemical itself would be harmful. To remover chloramine chemically, it is to be broken down to chlorine and ammonia (if I remember correctly) then there is another chemical to neutralize the ammonia and remove the chlorine. That's a lot of chemicals that I'm not sure about.
Good carbon filtration will remove chloramine and chlorine from tap water but I'm not sure if a regular Britta type filter is efficient enough..

Thank you- I already use distilled water

 

[ahood]

I work in a emergency room in a hospital. When people come in sick related to years and years of self abuse and bad habits they expect the doctor to walk in the door and suddenly for them to be cured! As a matter of fact some people ge real angry, cuss at the hospital staff and leave against medical advice when they are told that there is nothing quick we can do for them. It took years to destroy their bodies to this state and it will take years to fix it if they are lucky (and most people are not lucky and will now suffer for the rest of their lives!).

We humans still have a lot to learn about chameleons! We do not intend harm and we give them our best but it is so hard (if not impossible) to give them what they find in nature. It takes a long time for deficiencies to show up. By the time these deficiencies present as signs and symptoms quite a bit of damage is done. Some might be permanent, irreversible!

You have a very beautiful chameleon! I sure hope he gets better!

Feed him high quality food that is well gutloaded, make sure he gets his daily suplimentation as layed out in the forums, please keep him very well hydrated, make sure his lighting is perfect, make sure his cage is clean and make sure you reduce any stress hy may have!!!

Best of luck! I am rooting for your beautiful chameleon!!!!!

Thank you for the comment and compliment to Kiwi! I understand your metaphor, however, I don't feel like I have administered years of bad care. I also don't expect an instant magical cure. I am looking for tips and suggestions. I am willing to put in the work, time, effort, etc whatever it takes for him to get better. Also, you mentioned feeding him high quality food, vitamins, lighting, etc. Did you read my husbandry description? Is what I am doing now/what I have now not good enough (besides the lack of gutloading)? Please be more specific.

 

[Matt Vanilla Gorilla]

The panther chameleon care sheets here on the forums is so full of good information! It mentions that panthers lives from 5 to 7 years on average. If you just mathematically convert that to human years assuming a human life span of 70 years then every year for a panther chameleon is like 10 to 14 years! So, logically speaking, for a panther every day counts! Every meal counts! Every bug counts! In the span of a year I use over 200 different kinds of chameleon safe foods for gutloading! Nearly all organic items too! As for bugs, two or three different kinds of bugs is just not enough! In nature chameleons has a endless supply of hundreds of different kinds of bugs.

Here is a couple of screen shots from the panther chameleon care sheet from chameleonforums.com

Sure hope this helps!