Falling in Love with Roaches

[cyberlocc]

We can offer to chameleons a diet which is much closer to the natural one than we do nowadays
The shameless recommendation of absolutely unnatural roaches is wrong
Chameleons do not eat roaches for millions of years, we do not need to feed with them, it is not necessary and argumantation that captivity is different than Nature is weak,
Is is so only if we decide to do so and not if we try the proper way

I have done hundreds of wild fecal analyses of chamelekns of many kinds
No single one contained roaches
Every single one contained flying insects

Just a week ago in Tamzania, I analyzed faeces of 8 chameleon species

tjis was the rough result

trying to outsmart what Mother Natire is doing millions of years is ignorant and wrong in my humblest opinion

Hmm not 1 roach?

Here is the table from a larger study.
Prey-associated head-size variation in an invasive lizard in the Hawaiian Islands

Interesting. That lists roaches...

Credit to @JacksJill for that, she posted it a few times throughout the ages, this one didn't have a link, so we would have to ask her if you want it.

Here is a good translation thanks to @kinyonga, so I dont have to type it all

"The list JacksJill provided...."translated"...I hope..
Coleoptera ...beetles
Gastropoda ...snails
Squamata ...lizards
Diplopoda ...millipedes, etc
Hemiptera ...leafhoppers, cicadas, aphids, etc
Dermaptera ...earwigs, etc
Isopoda ...wood lice, etc
Hymenoptera ...bees, wasps, etc
Orthoptera ...grasshoppers, crickets, etc.
Collembola ...springtails, etc.
Neuroptera ...lacewings, etc.
Dkotera ...flies
Lepidoptera ...butterflies, moths
Araneae ..spiders
Blattodea...roaches, termites, etc.
Psocodes...lice, etc"


As to the Mother nature Comment, sure. Mother Nature also evolved them eating those insects to live for 2-3 years tops. Chameleons are not living 7-10 years in the wild, as they do in captivity.

Humans would not live as long as we do, if it were not for the Modern Medicine, and knowledge of how to better take care of ourselves. Eating better, being a large part of that.

Sure there is some areas, that we should be trying to mimic nature. More natural humidity, more natural water, more natural lighting, more natural temperatures, and other areas where Captivity provides an advantage of a better way. A consistent supply of water, and food, better food, that is gut loaded better ect.

 

[JacksJill]

It came from one of these

• Dietary analysis of the invasive lizard Chamaeleo jacksonii from a wet forest habitat in Hawaii (scan down....first page is blank)...http://hbs.bishopmuseum.org/publications/pdf/chamaeleo-report.pdf
• A comparison on head sizes and diet of Jackson's chameleons in different areas of Hawaiihttps://www.researchgate.net/figure...-xantholophus-on-five-Hawaiian_fig3_280741120

 

[CasqueAbove]

We can offer to chameleons a diet which is much closer to the natural one than we do nowadays
The shameless recommendation of absolutely unnatural roaches is wrong
Chameleons do not eat roaches for millions of years, we do not need to feed with them, it is not necessary and argumantation that captivity is different than Nature is weak,
Is is so only if we decide to do so and not if we try the proper way

I have done hundreds of wild fecal analyses of chamelekns of many kinds
No single one contained roaches
Every single one contained flying insects

Just a week ago in Tamzania, I analyzed faeces of 8 chameleon species

tjis was the rough result

trying to outsmart what Mother Natire is doing millions of years is ignorant and wrong in my humblest opinion

I would realize that roaches are highly unlikely to get eaten by chameleons in the wild (I mean they are nocturnal and on the ground) .
This has been my dilemma. I use roaches due to lack of options. I would bet chams in the wild eat very little ground dwelling insect. You know crickets, roaches, super worms all our to picks.

So I would love better ideas on feeding. I saw bees mentioned. Never would have thought of that. Things like that.
I am looking into getting black soldier fly larva. It almost seems like I should tet the larva mature to flys?
I saw hose flies? probably house. I do feed when I catch, but maybe a sterile breading colony.

Do you have others? and what of beetles? I have always wondered if the larval stages we feed are too fatty.

 

[CasqueAbove]

Hmm not 1 roach?

Here is the table from a larger study.
Prey-associated head-size variation in an invasive lizard in the Hawaiian Islands

Interesting. That lists roaches...

Credit to @JacksJill for that, she posted it a few times throughout the ages, this one didn't have a link, so we would have to ask her if you want it.

Here is a good translation thanks to @kinyonga, so I dont have to type it all

"The list JacksJill provided...."translated"...I hope..
Coleoptera ...beetles
Gastropoda ...snails
Squamata ...lizards
Diplopoda ...millipedes, etc
Hemiptera ...leafhoppers, cicadas, aphids, etc
Dermaptera ...earwigs, etc
Isopoda ...wood lice, etc
Hymenoptera ...bees, wasps, etc
Orthoptera ...grasshoppers, crickets, etc.
Collembola ...springtails, etc.
Neuroptera ...lacewings, etc.
Dkotera ...flies
Lepidoptera ...butterflies, moths
Araneae ..spiders
Blattodea...roaches, termites, etc.
Psocodes...lice, etc"


As to the Mother nature Comment, sure. Mother Nature also evolved them eating those insects to live for 2-3 years tops. Chameleons are not living 7-10 years in the wild, as they do in captivity.

Humans would not live as long as we do, if it were not for the Modern Medicine, and knowledge of how to better take care of ourselves. Eating better, being a large part of that.

Sure there is some areas, that we should be trying to mimic nature. More natural humidity, more natural water, more natural lighting, more natural temperatures, and other areas where Captivity provides an advantage of a better way. A consistent supply of water, and food, better food, that is gut loaded better ect.

I don't want to stir the pot. But wouldn't Hawaii be outside native ranges?

The important thing is that this does point out that they can adapt to different pray, and are not exclusive feeders.

 

[nightanole]

Black Soldierflies
Houseflies
Are easy to breed and produced in tons and cost almost nothing (at least in Europe)

bees are easy to keep to, however outdoors (I have three hives and feed just kicked out drones and old specimens

I tried black soldiers. Unfortunately a raccoon tried them too since the bin was outside. It seems they all flew the coop after that. I never tried after that, but i hear chicken farmers love the solders for free food from compost

 

[snitz427]

I tried black soldiers. Unfortunately a raccoon tried them too since the bin was outside. It seems they all flew the coop after that. I never tried after that, but i hear chicken farmers love the solders for free food from compost

Someone on here was breeding them easily in a plastic sterilite. I never had much luck with them, but they are excellent for composters!

Somewhere keeing bees were mentioned. I can’t speak for other states or countries, but in Maryland its a bit complicated and requires permits and inspections, as well as physical requirements. They’re hard enough to come by that I dont think a keeper would sacrifice any for food.

 

[cyberlocc]

I would realize that roaches are highly unlikely to get eaten by chameleons in the wild (I mean they are nocturnal and on the ground) .
This has been my dilemma. I use roaches due to lack of options. I would bet chams in the wild eat very little ground dwelling insect. You know crickets, roaches, super worms all our to picks.

So I would love better ideas on feeding. I saw bees mentioned. Never would have thought of that. Things like that.
I am looking into getting black soldier fly larva. It almost seems like I should tet the larva mature to flys?
I saw hose flies? probably house. I do feed when I catch, but maybe a sterile breading colony.

Do you have others? and what of beetles? I have always wondered if the larval stages we feed are too fatty.

Jacksjills Study, would play a hand to that.

Bees make up a very small portion of the diet, in her link (first one offers breakdowns). Here is that section.

So 32 Hymenoptera, 2 of them were Bees, Apidae are bees, the other 3 are wasps.

That means they ate more Roaches, than they did "Bees"

As to the Beetles, what kind.

Cerambicidae: Longhorn Beetle.
Chrysomelidae: Leaf Beetle (large family, not very specific)
Coccinellidae: Ladybugs, odd as I have been lead to believe these are toxic to reptiles.
Curculionidae : True Weevils
Elateridae: Click Beetles


Funny enough, as Petr is always talking about pollinators, none of those beetles are pollinators, except maybe some of the Leaf Beetles, but they only ate 1.

Ladybugs, eat mostly aphids, mites, whiteflies and scale insects. They are themselves insectivores.

Weevils, some do eat some pollen, however they are not strictly pollinators, at all. they also eat leaves, and decaying matter, and depending on the species, certain plant matter. Such as Rice, Grain ect.

Calliphoridae: Carrion Flies, or Blue Bottle/Green Bottle flies. In the wild, these feast on well carrion. So there is Preformed Vit A, and alot of it, seeing how this is the biggest number of any insect.
Stratiomyidae: Solider flies, which we are all familiar.
Syrphidae: Hoverflies, pollinators, so there is some pollen insects.
Drosophilidae: Fruit Flies, Drain Flies, ect.

Cicadellidae: Leafhoppers, NOT to be confused with Grasshoppers, these guys suck sap from plants and trees.
Cixiidae: Planthoppers, Aphids, Scale, Whiteflies, basically the things the lady bugs eat. Small insects.
Psylidae: Plant lice again very tiny, like planthoppers.

I don't want to stir the pot. But wouldn't Hawaii be outside native ranges?

The important thing is that this does point out that they can adapt to different pray, and are not exclusive feeders.

The Jackson's of Hawaii, have been there a long time, and are pretty well established.

There again, there is not really that drastic of a difference here, especially as a lot of these are subdivided by family or genus. The same insects, or similar would be present in both regions, minor differences, sure, but very similar in diets and compositions.

A bee is a bee, pretty much period. Some minor differences sure, but nothing that drastic, as far as being eaten is concerned surely. There could be exceptions, such as unusual insects that are only found in 1, like the Malagasy Green Emerald Pill Millipede, that Lemurs use to make medicine and cannot survive without. There, another issue arises as the millipedes cannot survive without a microbe they only get in Madgascar, and thus relocation in large quantities is not possible (Not even 1 millipede can survive in captivity, people have tried, no one has succeeded, they always starve to death)

However, commonly kept Chameleons obviously do not possess such a relationship as evidenced by wild populations elsewhere, and captivity.


As to not being very species agnostic, or area. Ya I would love to see this kind of data on a Panther, or a Parsons. No one has done it. Petrs "doing Fecals" is not evidence of anything, this study required hundreds of chameleons to be put down and autopsied to retrieve intestinal contents, and then need to be DNA sequenced, to see what the insects actually are.

This is way more time and money, than anyone is likely to put into the research. Unless, as is the case with Hawaii, they are doing so for a Invasive species to see, what the possibility of damage to the local ecosystem is.

That study was not done to tell Jacksons keepers the wild diet, it was done to tell Hawaii how much Impact Jacksons Chameleons could and will have.



Also. even if we had a 100% for sure, Panther Chameleon list, these are broken down by family, not be actual species (mostly some are in another graph).

So we would have no way to correlate to what it was precisely, and even if we did, good luck finding it. Alot of insects are not able to be purchased in the states, Importation, with most of these being plant pests, HA ya no. We are lucky to have like Madagascar hissing roaches as it is lol, and they eat mostly leaf litter.

 

[snitz427]

Jacksjills Study, would play a hand to that.

Bees make up a very small portion of the diet, in her link (first one offers breakdowns). Here is that section.
View attachment 260013

So 32 Hymenoptera, 2 of them were Bees, Apidae are bees, the other 3 are wasps.

That means they ate more Roaches, than they did "Bees"
View attachment 260014


As to the Beetles, what kind.
View attachment 260015

Cerambicidae: Longhorn Beetle.
Chrysomelidae: Leaf Beetle (large family, not very specific)
Coccinellidae: Ladybugs, odd as I have been lead to believe these are toxic to reptiles.
Curculionidae : True Weevils
Elateridae: Click Beetles


Funny enough, as Petr is always talking about pollinators, none of those beetles are pollinators, except maybe some of the Leaf Beetles, but they only ate 1.

Ladybugs, eat mostly aphids, mites, whiteflies and scale insects. They are themselves insectivores.

Weevils, some do eat some pollen, however they are not strictly pollinators, at all. they also eat leaves, and decaying matter, and depending on the species, certain plant matter. Such as Rice, Grain ect.

View attachment 260016

Calliphoridae: Carrion Flies, or Blue Bottle/Green Bottle flies. In the wild, these feast on well carrion. So there is Preformed Vit A, and alot of it, seeing how this is the biggest number of any insect.
Stratiomyidae: Solider flies, which we are all familiar.
Syrphidae: Hoverflies, pollinators, so there is some pollen insects.
Drosophilidae: Fruit Flies, Drain Flies, ect.

View attachment 260017

Cicadellidae: Leafhoppers, NOT to be confused with Grasshoppers, these guys suck sap from plants and trees.
Cixiidae: Planthoppers, Aphids, Scale, Whiteflies, basically the things the lady bugs eat. Small insects.
Psylidae: Plant lice again very tiny, like planthoppers.






The Jackson's of Hawaii, have been there a long time, and are pretty well established.

There again, there is not really that drastic of a difference here, especially as a lot of these are subdivided by family or genus. The same insects, or similar would be present in both regions, minor differences, sure, but very similar in diets and compositions.

A bee is a bee, pretty much period. Some minor differences sure, but nothing that drastic, as far as being eaten is concerned surely. There could be exceptions, such as unusual insects that are only found in 1, like the Malagasy Green Emerald Pill Millipede, that Lemurs use to make medicine and cannot survive without. There, another issue arises as the millipedes cannot survive without a microbe they only get in Madgascar, and thus relocation in large quantities is not possible (Not even 1 millipede can survive in captivity, people have tried, no one has succeeded, they always starve to death)

However, commonly kept Chameleons obviously do not possess such a relationship as evidenced by wild populations elsewhere, and captivity.


As to not being very species agnostic, or area. Ya I would love to see this kind of data on a Panther, or a Parsons. No one has done it. Petrs "doing Fecals" is not evidence of anything, this study required hundreds of chameleons to be put down and autopsied to retrieve intestinal contents, and then need to be DNA sequenced, to see what the insects actually are.

This is way more time and money, than anyone is likely to put into the research. Unless, as is the case with Hawaii, they are doing so for a Invasive species to see, what the possibility of damage to the local ecosystem is.

That study was not done to tell Jacksons keepers the wild diet, it was done to tell Hawaii how much Impact Jacksons Chameleons could and will have.

That’s interesting... lady bugs had a fair representation in that survey. I thought lady bugs were highly toxic (of varying degrees by species). I’ll have to do some more research around that, as ladybugs are highly beneficial in the greenhouse, and I’d be thrilled to find a species I can safely release in it.

 

[CasqueAbove]

Jacksjills Study, would play a hand to that.

Bees make up a very small portion of the diet, in her link (first one offers breakdowns). Here is that section.
View attachment 260013

So 32 Hymenoptera, 2 of them were Bees, Apidae are bees, the other 3 are wasps.

That means they ate more Roaches, than they did "Bees"
View attachment 260014


As to the Beetles, what kind.
View attachment 260015

Cerambicidae: Longhorn Beetle.
Chrysomelidae: Leaf Beetle (large family, not very specific)
Coccinellidae: Ladybugs, odd as I have been lead to believe these are toxic to reptiles.
Curculionidae : True Weevils
Elateridae: Click Beetles


Funny enough, as Petr is always talking about pollinators, none of those beetles are pollinators, except maybe some of the Leaf Beetles, but they only ate 1.

Ladybugs, eat mostly aphids, mites, whiteflies and scale insects. They are themselves insectivores.

Weevils, some do eat some pollen, however they are not strictly pollinators, at all. they also eat leaves, and decaying matter, and depending on the species, certain plant matter. Such as Rice, Grain ect.

View attachment 260016

Calliphoridae: Carrion Flies, or Blue Bottle/Green Bottle flies. In the wild, these feast on well carrion. So there is Preformed Vit A, and alot of it, seeing how this is the biggest number of any insect.
Stratiomyidae: Solider flies, which we are all familiar.
Syrphidae: Hoverflies, pollinators, so there is some pollen insects.
Drosophilidae: Fruit Flies, Drain Flies, ect.

View attachment 260017

Cicadellidae: Leafhoppers, NOT to be confused with Grasshoppers, these guys suck sap from plants and trees.
Cixiidae: Planthoppers, Aphids, Scale, Whiteflies, basically the things the lady bugs eat. Small insects.
Psylidae: Plant lice again very tiny, like planthoppers.






The Jackson's of Hawaii, have been there a long time, and are pretty well established.

There again, there is not really that drastic of a difference here, especially as a lot of these are subdivided by family or genus. The same insects, or similar would be present in both regions, minor differences, sure, but very similar in diets and compositions.

A bee is a bee, pretty much period. Some minor differences sure, but nothing that drastic, as far as being eaten is concerned surely. There could be exceptions, such as unusual insects that are only found in 1, like the Malagasy Green Emerald Pill Millipede, that Lemurs use to make medicine and cannot survive without. There, another issue arises as the millipedes cannot survive without a microbe they only get in Madgascar, and thus relocation in large quantities is not possible (Not even 1 millipede can survive in captivity, people have tried, no one has succeeded, they always starve to death)

However, commonly kept Chameleons obviously do not possess such a relationship as evidenced by wild populations elsewhere, and captivity.


As to not being very species agnostic, or area. Ya I would love to see this kind of data on a Panther, or a Parsons. No one has done it. Petrs "doing Fecals" is not evidence of anything, this study required hundreds of chameleons to be put down and autopsied to retrieve intestinal contents, and then need to be DNA sequenced, to see what the insects actually are.

This is way more time and money, than anyone is likely to put into the research. Unless, as is the case with Hawaii, they are doing so for a Invasive species to see, what the possibility of damage to the local ecosystem is.

That study was not done to tell Jacksons keepers the wild diet, it was done to tell Hawaii how much Impact Jacksons Chameleons could and will have.

And again thank you for facts.
I was surprised by the fact of ground insects. The I realized I had not considered their place in the canopy, as it were. But yea any chameleon living closer to the ground, like a bush, they would be exposed to more. They don't all live high int tree tops.

 

[cyberlocc]

That’s interesting... lady bugs had a fair representation in that survey. I thought lady bugs were highly toxic (of varying degrees by species). I’ll have to do some more research around that, as ladybugs are highly beneficial in the greenhouse, and I’d be thrilled to find a species I can safely release in it.

Yes, I was very very interested to see ladybugs on that list as well. That is very surprising as I have always been lead to the same, they are very toxic.

I would LOVE to find a lady bug species that is not toxic, or debunk that. Good feeder for baby chameleons, as well as Adults, and other smaller herps. Having feeder colonies that can be fed to a more diverse size range of animal would be a good thing to me.

And again thank you for facts.
I was surprised by the fact of ground insects. The I realized I had not considered their place in the canopy, as it were. But yea any chameleon living closer to the ground, like a bush, they would be exposed to more. They don't all live high int tree tops.

Well that, and not all of these insects are really "Ground" insects, there is roaches that live in trees, and are arboreal. Even my Hissers, will climb the viv walls, and while roaches are said to be Nocturnal, they are quite frequently out and about throughout the day, even escapees, will climb my Viv walls to the light and get snatched.

I say that to all breeders, who keep in complete darkness, Roaches really dont want complete darkness, they dont live in caves (unless they are cave roaches lol).

Not a lot of proteins for a roach on the ground, surely they have to climb some trees sometimes. We really dont know, as roaches are pretty secretive. Growing up in Phoenix Arizona. I have seen many of German Cockroaches and Turkistan roaches, out in full sun 120 degree weather, and high up on the side of buildings ect. Sure they prefer darkness, but seemingly as a secretive measure.

My roaches all have Lights above their vivs, and still come out in full light. I think they "they can live without light" has morphed too much into, "they hate light" which is not the case in my experience.

 

[CasqueAbove]

Yes, I was very very interested to see ladybugs on that list as well. That is very surprising as I have always been lead to the same, they are very toxic.




Well that, and not all of these insects are really "Ground" insects, there is roaches that live in trees, and are arboreal. Even my Hissers, will climb the viv walls, and while roaches are said to be Nocturnal, they are quite frequently out and about throughout the day, even escapees, will climb my Viv walls to the light and get snatched.

I say that to all breeders, who keep in complete darkness, Roaches really dont want complete darkness, they dont live in caves (unless they are cave roaches lol).

Not a lot of proteins for a roach on the ground, surely they have to climb some trees sometimes. We really dont know, as roaches are pretty secretive. Growing up in Phoenix Arizona. I have seen many of German Cockroaches and Turkistan roaches, out in full sun 120 degree weather, and high up on the side of buildings ect. Sure they prefer darkness, but seemingly as a secretive measure.

My roaches all have Lights above their vivs, and still come out in full light. I think they "they can live without light" has morphed too much into, "they hate light" which is not the case in my experience.

Interesting, I do not have lights, but there are large holes to allow light.(not intentional) I do see them move around and eat during the day.
I did struggle for a while, and did not have success until I got to treating them like pets.

Great so now you have inspired larger cages for my snakes, and a full enclosure for roaches.

 

[snitz427]

Yes, I was very very interested to see ladybugs on that list as well. That is very surprising as I have always been lead to the same, they are very toxic.

I would LOVE to find a lady bug species that is not toxic, or debunk that. Good feeder for baby chameleons, as well as Adults, and other smaller herps. Having feeder colonies that can be fed to a more diverse size range of animal would be a good thing to me.




Well that, and not all of these insects are really "Ground" insects, there is roaches that live in trees, and are arboreal. Even my Hissers, will climb the viv walls, and while roaches are said to be Nocturnal, they are quite frequently out and about throughout the day, even escapees, will climb my Viv walls to the light and get snatched.

I say that to all breeders, who keep in complete darkness, Roaches really dont want complete darkness, they dont live in caves (unless they are cave roaches lol).

Not a lot of proteins for a roach on the ground, surely they have to climb some trees sometimes. We really dont know, as roaches are pretty secretive. Growing up in Phoenix Arizona. I have seen many of German Cockroaches and Turkistan roaches, out in full sun 120 degree weather, and high up on the side of buildings ect. Sure they prefer darkness, but seemingly as a secretive measure.

My roaches all have Lights above their vivs, and still come out in full light. I think they "they can live without light" has morphed too much into, "they hate light" which is not the case in my experience.

Ive read their coloration corresponds to their toxicity, but I wouldnt want to be the one to experiment on that! There is a species nicknamed “mealybug destroyer” that are brown and quite small. They eat ravenous amounts of the various greenhouse pests and I would REALLLY like to release them (along with lacewings and mantids) in the GH.

I’ll start doing some more research on that one, for sure. If not all are toxic, they would be an excellent sized feeder for babies.

 

[cyberlocc]

Interesting, I do not have lights, but there are large holes to allow light.(not intentional) I do see them move around and eat during the day.
I did struggle for a while, and did not have success until I got to treating them like pets.

Great so now you have inspired larger cages for my snakes, and a full enclosure for roaches.

Well that brings a dilemma with the "More natural Feeders".

Sounds great, but BSFs require, like an entire room to breed dont they. Bluebottle and Green Bottle flies? Do you breed with carrion? Can you continuously breed with out it? Alot of these insects would require very specialized care, and large arboreal vivariums. How would you even feed ladybugs? Like snits said, great for the greenhouse, but at a certain point, would you not run out of Aphids and Mites?

Throw gut loading out of the window, most of these insects eat specialized strict diets.

I'm down with it, to give it a shot. But we should start a new thread on this.

 

[PetNcs]

Blattodea are not explicitely roaches, it might refer to termites as well

to argument with food of feral chameleons is stupid, i did not refer to unnatural conditions

so far, the sirviving in captivity longer than in the wild refers to a handful of species (calyptratus and pardalis mainly), a vast majority species does not apply at all.

to feed „better“ requires detailed knowöedge what is natiral and what not. And to say that tosches are better food than tjeir natiral ones is absolutely absurd, there is no base for saying that

gutloading is another a solutely problematic area, I do NOT believe it at all, itnis highly overestimated and parotted without any base and research
Same
As the statement about necessity of varied diet: there is no oong term study availaböe, but based on what I have seen during 30years, xhameleons are opportunistic feeders and their diet is rather uniform if analysed one by one

 

[snitz427]

Also, my roaches gravitate to the brightest areas of their bio enclosures... to bask, believe it or not. I don’t use heat tape, but rather incandescent lights. Some gave the lights pointed down, others are directly above the lights and receive indirect heat from them. All will gravitate to the light for the heat.

(Since on the topic, I’ll also point out my roaches were noticeably happier and more active in the bio setup. Theyre out in the open all day, and also are near a window that gets bright light!)

 

[snitz427]

You are correct that the ladybugs can run out of food. I have released a plague of lacewing larva in my house (regrets, I had them)... I only saw one adult lacewing in a spider web. I dont think there was enough food for the lacewing larva to survive to adulthood. In a greenhouse with a pest problem, absolutely enough food to go around for a while.


BLSF can be done in small areas and boxes. Ive not had much luck with them (too finicky) but I did have them breeding in a 16x16x24 cage.

 

[cyberlocc]

Blattodea are not explicitely roaches, it might refer to termites as well

to argument with food of feral chameleons is stupid, i did not refer to unnatural conditions

so far, the sirviving in captivity longer than in the wild refers to a handful of species (calyptratus and pardalis mainly), a vast majority species does not apply at all.

to feed „better“ requires detailed knowöedge what is natiral and what not. And to say that tosches are better food than tjeir natiral ones is absolutely absurd, there is no base for saying that

gutloading is another a solutely problematic area, I do NOT believe it at all, itnis highly overestimated and parotted without any base and research
Same
As the statement about necessity of varied diet: there is no oong term study availaböe, but based on what I have seen during 30years, xhameleons are opportunistic feeders and their diet is rather uniform if analysed one by one

That study is very accurate and would be likely identical of that of one taken in Kenya. All of those species, are found both in Hawaii and in Kenya, the pattern would remain the same. At least to a family level, which is as far as I took it.

So I would say that study is pretty accurate, as far as Gutloading, that is simply a catch all to make sure we provide as much variety as possible.

You are sticking to the pollinator idea, which I am with you, there is quite a few pollinators. BUT there is not solely pollinators, and that is where the other gut loading comes in. Chameleons do not just eat pollinators.

There diet is rather uniform, however in its uniformity there is a drastic difference in prey items. There is pollinators, there is Leaf eaters, there is insectivores, there is carrion eaters, ect. This provides a more diverse diet of feeders with diverse diets to fill gaps.

 

[CasqueAbove]

Well that brings a dilemma with the "More natural Feeders".

Sounds great, but BSFs require, like an entire room to breed dont they. Bluebottle and Green Bottle flies? Do you breed with carrion? Can you continuously breed with out it? Alot of these insects would require very specialized care, and large arboreal vivariums. How would you even feed ladybugs? Like snits said, great for the greenhouse, but at a certain point, would you not run out of Aphids and Mites?

Throw gut loading out of the window, most of these insects eat specialized strict diets.

I know they breed sterile maggots for medical purposes. Used to eat dead flesh from wounds.

On the BSFs that is where I was confused. So are they collected, or farmed as it were?
I have not fed lady bugs, I thought they were toxic also. That has also been my concern with beetles. I know some are toxic or bite, but I don't know which is which. They are like wiled mushrooms too me.

 

[PetNcs]

Jacksjills Study, would play a hand to that.

Bees make up a very small portion of the diet, in her link (first one offers breakdowns). Here is that section.
View attachment 260013

So 32 Hymenoptera, 2 of them were Bees, Apidae are bees, the other 3 are wasps.

That means they ate more Roaches, than they did "Bees"
View attachment 260014


As to the Beetles, what kind.
View attachment 260015

Cerambicidae: Longhorn Beetle.
Chrysomelidae: Leaf Beetle (large family, not very specific)
Coccinellidae: Ladybugs, odd as I have been lead to believe these are toxic to reptiles.
Curculionidae : True Weevils
Elateridae: Click Beetles


Funny enough, as Petr is always talking about pollinators, none of those beetles are pollinators, except maybe some of the Leaf Beetles, but they only ate 1.

Ladybugs, eat mostly aphids, mites, whiteflies and scale insects. They are themselves insectivores.

Weevils, some do eat some pollen, however they are not strictly pollinators, at all. they also eat leaves, and decaying matter, and depending on the species, certain plant matter. Such as Rice, Grain ect.

View attachment 260016

Calliphoridae: Carrion Flies, or Blue Bottle/Green Bottle flies. In the wild, these feast on well carrion. So there is Preformed Vit A, and alot of it, seeing how this is the biggest number of any insect.
Stratiomyidae: Solider flies, which we are all familiar.
Syrphidae: Hoverflies, pollinators, so there is some pollen insects.
Drosophilidae: Fruit Flies, Drain Flies, ect.

View attachment 260017

Cicadellidae: Leafhoppers, NOT to be confused with Grasshoppers, these guys suck sap from plants and trees.
Cixiidae: Planthoppers, Aphids, Scale, Whiteflies, basically the things the lady bugs eat. Small insects.
Psylidae: Plant lice again very tiny, like planthoppers.






The Jackson's of Hawaii, have been there a long time, and are pretty well established.

There again, there is not really that drastic of a difference here, especially as a lot of these are subdivided by family or genus. The same insects, or similar would be present in both regions, minor differences, sure, but very similar in diets and compositions.

A bee is a bee, pretty much period. Some minor differences sure, but nothing that drastic, as far as being eaten is concerned surely. There could be exceptions, such as unusual insects that are only found in 1, like the Malagasy Green Emerald Pill Millipede, that Lemurs use to make medicine and cannot survive without. There, another issue arises as the millipedes cannot survive without a microbe they only get in Madgascar, and thus relocation in large quantities is not possible (Not even 1 millipede can survive in captivity, people have tried, no one has succeeded, they always starve to death)

However, commonly kept Chameleons obviously do not possess such a relationship as evidenced by wild populations elsewhere, and captivity.


As to not being very species agnostic, or area. Ya I would love to see this kind of data on a Panther, or a Parsons. No one has done it. Petrs "doing Fecals" is not evidence of anything, this study required hundreds of chameleons to be put down and autopsied to retrieve intestinal contents, and then need to be DNA sequenced, to see what the insects actually are.

This is way more time and money, than anyone is likely to put into the research. Unless, as is the case with Hawaii, they are doing so for a Invasive species to see, what the possibility of damage to the local ecosystem is.

That study was not done to tell Jacksons keepers the wild diet, it was done to tell Hawaii how much Impact Jacksons Chameleons could and will have.



Also. even if we had a 100% for sure, Panther Chameleon list, these are broken down by family, not be actual species (mostly some are in another graph).

So we would have no way to correlate to what it was precisely, and even if we did, good luck finding it. Alot of insects are not able to be purchased in the states, Importation, with most of these being plant pests, HA ya no. We are lucky to have like Madagascar hissing roaches as it is lol, and they eat mostly leaf litter.

the jacksons are LONG in Hawaii? Not even 50 years?! This is merely few tens of generations, this should be „long“
And „well established“? I do NOT agree
their examle is exactly showing only jackson‘s oprtunism and will to survive feeding on anything possible
The diet in Kenya is NOT as varied as innhawaii. i did analyses too.
We have scarce data on the real diet composition, noone will invest in that analyses so much time as ai do
Saying itnis insufficient is correct but if there is ammost nothing, every „simething“ is valuable

 

[PetNcs]

Ansolutely FALSE STATEMENT

That study is very accurate and would be likely identical of that of one taken in Kenya. All of those species, are found both in Hawaii and in Kenya, the pattern would remain the same. At least to a family level, which is as far as I took it.

ANSOLUTELY FALSE STATEMENT BASED ON NOTHING
If I would say such a nonsense, cBerlocc would destroy me in asiing for evidence bit he can take the linerty to make absolutely soeculative, based on nothing statements and paeudoconclusipns?