CasqueAbove
Chameleon Enthusiast
I do think we have to separate what is best, and what is best available.
Falling in Love with Roaches
- Thread starter Sammy Grigio
- Start date
PetNcs
Chameleon Enthusiast
Are you serious?
to make willingly a research exposing chameleons to toxic animals if we even do not sinullate other relevant sources of food? That I do not understand...
I comsoder it unethical and absolutely unjustified, even as a thought
CasqueAbove
Chameleon Enthusiast
I believe the point is in any ecosystem all niches are filled. And within these you will find commonality. A mix of carrion feeders, insectivores, and plant eaters.
cyberlocc
Chameleon Enthusiast
That "toxic animal" makes up one of the largest parts of a chameleons diet.
And to the other comment its not baseless at all. Sorry to break this to you Petr, but there is lady bugs, snails and Bottle Flies in Kenya as their is in Hawaii.
There is very little if any insects that are completely unique and endemic to either one of those places, that are not in a family of similar insects. The insects in Hawaii, are going to be vastly the same as those in Kenya, at least down to a family level, and similarity.
Again I covered there is odd ball cases, like with the lemurs, and these may be present with some chameleons. However, generalizing, the prey taken will be the same or similar.
You testing 8 chameleons fecals is not going to hold weight over DNA sequencing of undigested prey.
If you have the means to do a study, like this then do it. I would love to see how yours differs, instead of you insulting others studys.
And pollinators, which as petr says and I do not doubt, make up a large portion of wild feeders.
CasqueAbove
Chameleon Enthusiast
Yea we could test toxicity without feeding it to something and seeing if it reacts. We are past animal testing.
cyberlocc
Chameleon Enthusiast
To be fair, and I should have clarified this when it was brought up.
From my Limited reading on the Ladybugs, they are only toxic when eaten in large amounts, and even then its like diarrhea, not death.
Digested Particles, are not enough to form a well formulated study.
You will need high end tech, and you will have to kill chameleons to perform a study like that one. I am pretty sure you dont have access to the former, and wouldn't want to do the later, and I would not want to either, so not knocking you.
If you did do it, it would be down to family, most likely. Which would look identical to theirs I bet money. The insect families are going to be similar Hawaii to Kenya, and you know it. We are breaking this down to a family level.
There is likely a Florida study, lets find that and watch it be a carbon copy.
I am not sure why you are attacking the study? It is on your side anway, it says what you do?
Last edited:
PetNcs
Chameleon Enthusiast
I sa
Again, just a stupid
I jave seen about 2500 wild chameleons of more than 30 species in 3 countries just within last 4 months...
Who of you have done something just near to it for the entire life?
id fecals of 8 species not 8 Chamaleons
Again, just a stupid
I jave seen about 2500 wild chameleons of more than 30 species in 3 countries just within last 4 months...
Who of you have done something just near to it for the entire life?
Last edited:
Redman
Avid Member
I prefer to feed the bsfl, and when they get too big or too numerous, feed the adults to the chams. They LOVE them, and eat them like popcorn.
They are very easy to raise in small plastic tubs, just know that they will try to crawl out when it's time for pupation.
I have been seriously researching and considering it all winter, and plan to pull the trigger this summer if I don't end up moving to Florida by then.
I was able to successfully breed bsfl in a 20 tall aquarium with the right setup.
For me, it's all about having enough leaves for them, regular misting, and having an egg laying area done right.
I used deli cups with fruit and veg in the bottom. The smell of this seemed to attract them for egg laying.
I also taped stacks of corrugated cardboard inside the rim of the cup, so that the holes in the layers are aligned top to bottom. They like to lay their eggs there.
One of the great things about bsf, in my opinion, is that the adults are so easy to catch by hand. They don't eat, so they aren't dirty or covered in bacteria to be worried about. At least to the best of my knowledge.
Last edited:
PetNcs
Chameleon Enthusiast
Remind me whose study I have insulted?!
I just say the results of stidies of feral xhameleons in hawaii where they live several decades is very limitedly apölicable to the understanding of natiran diet on tje opposite side of the globe where they live tens of millions of years
And ai insist
snitz427
Chameleon Enthusiast
You misunderstood. I said that I would NOT want to experiment on that. I will, however, research (as in read texts) on the subject.
cyberlocc
Chameleon Enthusiast
See you are getting defensive for NO REASON. That was not an attack on you, it was simply stating that you cant challenge data taken in that means, with one that is of lesser accuracy.
I thought you said 8, I thought that was a recent trip, and it was 8 Jackson's taken of study. My apologies.
Still applies, and still is not an attack on you in the slightest.
We need to move this derail off this thread.
https://www.chameleonforums.com/threads/naturalistic-diet.173863/
There we go.
PetNcs
Chameleon Enthusiast
THEY ABSOLUTELY DO NOT
A statement that xhameleons feed predominantly on ladybugs is simply false
Undoubtedly
snitz427
Chameleon Enthusiast
Where are you located? Curious how strict other areas are. Ive been very interested in bee keeping (for honey & bee pollen, not for cham food)... but the requirements are too much for my current home. Hope to purchase more property in the next few years that would allow it.
PetNcs
Chameleon Enthusiast
honey bees are great
Each beehive has about 40-50t bees, I have three
ou can easily feed drones and old bees without any harm to the colony
house flies: easy to breed. In EU, they are produced in tons for fishing as larvae, you just let them pupate and metamorph
beetles: the ciconiidae are easy to breed and ai would not feed larvae bur adult beetles of some small species of eg. Pachnoda sp.
PetNcs
Chameleon Enthusiast
Mea culpa, I misunderstood, sorry for that
Lady bugs...toxins...
https://www.natureworldnews.com/articles/15047/20150605/honest-ladybugs-reveal-their-toxicity.htm
"The seven-spot ladybird synthesizes the toxic alkaloids, N-oxide coccinelline and its free base precoccinelline; depending on sex and diet, the spot size and coloration can provide some indication of how toxic the individual insect is to potential predators"...
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coccinella_septempunctata
https://www.natureworldnews.com/articles/15047/20150605/honest-ladybugs-reveal-their-toxicity.htm
"The seven-spot ladybird synthesizes the toxic alkaloids, N-oxide coccinelline and its free base precoccinelline; depending on sex and diet, the spot size and coloration can provide some indication of how toxic the individual insect is to potential predators"...
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coccinella_septempunctata
Last edited:
skoram
Established Member
Couldn't read everything as there were way too many long, drawn out posts but I have seen this theme of natural/wild vs. artificial/captive play out often on these forums and want to share my 2 cents on this, for what it's worth:
Information about natural/wild conditions is invaluable and I believe forms the basis of all that we try to provide for our captive animals. In some specific cases and areas, natural/wild conditions are the absolute best that we can hope to achieve. This should make sense. All living things have evolved their DNA to fit within their "natural" environment.
In some cases, deviating from these natural conditions can have harmful, even fatal consequences for an organism, like trying to grow carnivorous plants in a nutrient-rich medium.
However, in some other cases, I believe deviating from these conditions can be beneficial for 2 general reasons:
1. Technology. Humans living in wild, natural conditions would not live to be 80+ years old, on average. Technology has allowed us to improve on these conditions, develop "unnatural" medical treatments, etc. to prolong our lifespan. No fish eats fish flakes or pellets in the wild (at least to my knowledge
) but these have proven to be a more healthy and safe source of nutrition for many (not all) aquarium species.
2. Our goals as keepers and nature's/evolution's goals are not necessarily the same. Our primary goal as keepers is to keep our animals healthy so they can live as long as possible. Nature/evolution's goal is to allow organisms to adapt so they can live long enough to reproduce for the continuation of their species. In other words, nature wants organisms to be able to reasonably reproduce, but it doesn't want them to become too strong or live too long - this would throw ecological balance out of whack.
Conclusion: It is *extremely* important to know as much as possible about natural/wild conditions but it is not necessarily the end-all be-all for all situations and should be taken with some grain of salt when applied to captive care of organisms.
Information about natural/wild conditions is invaluable and I believe forms the basis of all that we try to provide for our captive animals. In some specific cases and areas, natural/wild conditions are the absolute best that we can hope to achieve. This should make sense. All living things have evolved their DNA to fit within their "natural" environment.
In some cases, deviating from these natural conditions can have harmful, even fatal consequences for an organism, like trying to grow carnivorous plants in a nutrient-rich medium.
However, in some other cases, I believe deviating from these conditions can be beneficial for 2 general reasons:
1. Technology. Humans living in wild, natural conditions would not live to be 80+ years old, on average. Technology has allowed us to improve on these conditions, develop "unnatural" medical treatments, etc. to prolong our lifespan. No fish eats fish flakes or pellets in the wild (at least to my knowledge
) but these have proven to be a more healthy and safe source of nutrition for many (not all) aquarium species.2. Our goals as keepers and nature's/evolution's goals are not necessarily the same. Our primary goal as keepers is to keep our animals healthy so they can live as long as possible. Nature/evolution's goal is to allow organisms to adapt so they can live long enough to reproduce for the continuation of their species. In other words, nature wants organisms to be able to reasonably reproduce, but it doesn't want them to become too strong or live too long - this would throw ecological balance out of whack.
Conclusion: It is *extremely* important to know as much as possible about natural/wild conditions but it is not necessarily the end-all be-all for all situations and should be taken with some grain of salt when applied to captive care of organisms.
