Feeding pinky mice?

[AReptile]

All it is for them is a treat, like candy would be to us. Have too much candy and you start to have tooth problems and so on, well I'm sure being fed too many pinkies would start to cause problems too. If you want to give your cham a treat what's wrong with wax worms? Offer the same things that the pinkies do.. I swear some people just want to see vertebrate animals being eaten by their pets.

 

[serenitystarlite]

When I was still in high school (15 years ago), I got my first chameleon. She was a wc Senegal named Mariko. At the time, I also had pet mice that I brought home from the biology lab at the end of the school year. Well I thought I picked out all female mice, but one was a boy and of course they had babies. Anyway, my mother who was weird and hated crickets even more than I do would often feed baby mice to my chameleon. Somehow she was terrified of crickets but fine with seeing Mariko eat baby mice. Mariko lived for 3 years in an aquarium because I was young and clueless. The only issue she ever had was an abscess on her face which I would blame on the housing. I don't remember her having any other health issues. I found an old picture of her recently and she looks normal and healthier than my dear Kami.

I'm not condoning feeding mice, however. Keep in mind that Mariko was a wc Senegal who possibly had parasites and other health issues. I don't remember what the vet did other than cut the abscess open and cleaned it out. My father was with us but he doesn't remember either. We gave her medicine for the abscess but can't remember if she was treated for parasites or even tested. Anyway, I have a feeling that the mice kept her healthier because of the high protein and kept her at a healthy weight since Senegals are often pretty skinny.

But in terms of a healthy, parasite-free chameleon with no health problems who is a normal weight, I wouldn't recommend feeding mice for no reason.

 

[nateboston78]

I would have to ask what studies you Vet has done or believes in that makes him think this is beneficial. Anyone can say they "think" this would be beneficial. Pinky mice are not just laying around available for chams to snap up in the wild.

I'd also like conclusive evidence/studies that states otherwise. Yes, pinky mice may not be laying around in the wild - but don't forget baby birds are pretty commonly found in tree's - not to mention other smaller reptiles that are part of a chameleon's diet.

That being said, I feed my Parson's pinkies, and also fuzzies every week. My oldest is 8 years old and he is doing quite fine. Unless anyone has real concrete evidence that state's otherwise - It really boils down to personal choice . . . the verdict is still out on this one people.

 

[Chamero]

Some Thoughts

Lets break the "pinky feeding" arguments down into a few categories:

Frequency
I think we all agree that when pinkies are fed regularly, a higher risk of health issues is taken.
That being said, the evidence provided only suggests higher risk, and is not definitive.
From the above we can conclude that the lower the frequency, the lower the risk.

Size
If pinkies are safe for bigger chams like parsonii, melleri, outslets, then why aren't they safe for veilds and panthers.
Safe is the questions, not size of chameleon.

Natural
Pinkies are not found in the natural habitat of the chameleon.
Chams are not found in our natural habitat yet we continue to keep them.
Just because it isn't natural, doesn't mean it wont work

Nutrients/Benefit
-I think we all agree that pinkies are unnecessary in terms of offering
staple nutrients.
-Meaning that the same satisfaction can be achieved with other
feeders.
-If pinkies are the same as waxworms and other insects, then they are
the same
pinkies = waxworm = insects

Conclusion
What if people, for whatever reason, wanted to feed a pinky just to feed a pinky.

Until proven otherwise , the evidence, or lack there of, suggests that pinkies fed once a month or less cannot be deemed a health issue.

 

[Chamero]

So maybe I was a bit forward in my previous post but let me ask some of you this...

Would you be opposed to the feeding of baby veilds or pygmy chams to older adult chams?

 

[draetish]

So maybe I was a bit forward in my previous post but let me ask some of you this...

Would you be opposed to the feeding of baby veilds or pygmy chams to older adult chams?

Yes, yes and yes, how could you feed a larger cham a smaller cham if you love chams?

 

[sandrachameleon]

Would you be opposed to the feeding of baby veilds or pygmy chams to older adult chams?

While i think it quite likely that a larger chameleon in the wild would occassionally eat smaller lizards, snakes, spiders, small birds and maybe small rodents, it is my understanding that they primarily eat insects. And as insects are all that is actually required to keep healthy happy chameleon pets, I see no benefit to adding anything else. I can think of no reason to feed baby veild or pygmys to a larger adult cham. I would much rather keep the veileds and pygmys as pets, or find new homes for them. They are worth more alive than as feeders. Insects are far less expensive as a prey choice.

 

[Elizadolots]

I know I've seen it recommended that weak, babies who are unlikely to survive should be fed to the parents.

 

[AsiaKauffman]

I don't think you will find alot of people, if any that have done this. The main reason is the amount of protein in the mice and we know that leads to gout possibly. I don't think it is natural for the smaller species and I'm sure the larger chams in the wild don't do it on a daily basis. Think about it, mice don't live in trees and if they do run across an occassional bird nest with a chick and no parent around, then it's free food.

Can you show me where you found out pinkies are high in protein and it can lead to gout in chameleons? My chameleon just started eating pinkies ( vets recommendation) and i want to get all the info i can on food. Thank you!

 

[javsto]

asking people whether or not they feed thier chams rodents or other small lizards is equal to asking them whether or not to house a cham in an all glass terrarium as opposed to an aluminum mesh cage. You will get answers from both sides of the argument but in the long run it all comes down to your personal decission because its your pet and how you feed it or house it matters on what you want to do. so either flip a coin or get out the old magic 8-ball or what ever you choose when making a decision.

 

[Carlton]

I would want to know just why your vet recommended you feed your cham pinkies first. They should have a very specific reason. If not, be cautious. Be aware that most vets are pretty clueless about cham nutrition and may have no idea what could cause gout or any other metabolic problem.

 

[AsiaKauffman]

I would want to know just why your vet recommended you feed your cham pinkies first. They should have a very specific reason. If not, be cautious. Be aware that most vets are pretty clueless about cham nutrition and may have no idea what could cause gout or any other metabolic problem.

My panther came in with gular edema ( i believe from d3 oversupplementing from a recommendation from a pet store), my fault for not researching better, went to 2 vets, 1 vet treated for 2 months 3 different treatments for neck infection. 2nd vet is treating for fatty liver now because 2 blood works came back all organs functioning properly.

2nd vet recommended pinkies and crickets to help with nutrients for the fatty liver. Im feeding 2 -3 pinkies per week for 2 weeks now. supposed to take 6-8 weeks for liver to improve, but I am researching more and see on here that pinkies can cause fatty liver???? I'm curious now if that can make my panther worse????

I am seriously considering going back to school to be a reptile specialist, not for money, we all know this is an expensive hobby, but to learn what to an not do do from personal experience, and others experience, and write a few medical books with photos and details so the world can understand the pros/cons and just a better understanding of these little guys. I hate when they get sick and know its something I probably didn't do. It would be awesome to have someone that doesn't just wanna take your money, do surgeries and make guesses. I'm sure if we could all come together with experiences ( like this forum), that the chameleons could all have better lives if we listen and observe them and just try.

 

[sandrachameleon]

...
2nd vet recommended pinkies and crickets to help with nutrients for the fatty liver. Im feeding 2 -3 pinkies per week for 2 weeks now. supposed to take 6-8 weeks for liver to improve, ...

How much experience does this vet have with Chameleons specifically (not lizards generally)?
Ive never heard of edema being treated by providing excessive fat (possibly excessive preformed vitamin A as well) via frequent offering of pinkies.

 

[AsiaKauffman]

How much experience does this vet have with Chameleons specifically (not lizards generally)?
Ive never heard of edema being treated by providing excessive fat (possibly excessive preformed vitamin A as well) via frequent offering of pinkies.

He said he sees chameleons all the time for different things and he had jacksons before.

Dr. Boyer received his doctor of veterinary medicine (DVM) degree from Colorado State University, Ft. Collins, in 1989 after completing his pre-veterinary work at the University of Colorado, Boulder. Dr. Boyer has practiced dog and cat medicine, as well as exotic animal medicine, for over two decades.

Dr. Boyer has a special interest in the veterinary care of reptiles and amphibians. In 1991 he co-founded the Association of Reptilian and Amphibian Veterinarians, which now has over a thousand members world wide. He served as the organization's first president and created the Bulletin of the Association of Reptilian and Amphibian Veterinarians, now the Journal of Herpetological Medicine and Surgery, and served as its Editor-in-Chief for eighteen years until 2008. The Journal of Herpetological Medicine and Surgery remains one of the premier veterinary publications focusing on reptiles and amphibians.

Dr. Boyer has published two books on reptile medicine through the American Animal Hospital Association, the most recent of which is Essentials of Reptiles: A Guide for Practitioners, in 1998.

Dr. Boyer spent a year as a clinical instructor in exotic animal medicine at Colorado State University's School of Veterinary Medicine, Veterinary Teaching Hospital, in 1994 and 1995. He has an active interest in small and exotic animals and continues to lecture and write on reptiles and ferrets.

He is a member of American Animal Hospital Association, American Veterinary Medical Association, American Association of Zoo Veterinarians, Association of Reptilian and Amphibian Veterinarians, Association of Avian Veterinarians, California Veterinary Medical Association, Ferrets Anonymous, San Diego County Veterinary Medical Association, San Diego Herpetological Society, and San Diego Turtle and Tortoise Society.

In 2008 Dr. Boyer was invited to be on the organizing committee of the American Board of Veterinary Practitioners Reptile and Amphibian Specialty Committee and recently Dr. Boyer passed the qualifying examination in November 2010 and is a Diplomate of the American Board of Veterinary Practitioners, Reptile and Amphibian Specialty.

 

[AsiaKauffman]

The vet seems to know what hes doing, but he mentions that when we don't know 100% of what is wrong, it's had to diagnose.

I know what I did and did not do for my chameleons, and the research i am doing is proving my theories. My only thoughts now is..... if my panthers organs are fine and his neck is still swollen, then why the edema? What will get it to go away? I'm trying to figure out how to learn about bugs and what their properties are and how it will effect the chameleons. The more I learn from my mistakes and others experiences the better keeper I will be. i know there are accept-ions to rules, but if i get to see the same positive results then i know im doing something right.

 

[lanlord510]

How does everyone here feel about a twice a year or possibly more frequent diet of Anoles? I tried it once with my Male and he ate that faster than anything I have ever seen him eat. he loved it and passed it just fine... it was an adult Anole and he is maybe 8 months old now and had no problem catching it half way accross his habitat and pulling it through the air with his tongue, eating it faster than anything... it was amazing, and his happy colors flaired brighter than I had ever seen. I honestly do not want this to be a common meal or anything, but it seemed to really please him. Please dont flame me, as I do truly love all animals, but also want to meet the dietary diversity that chameleons REALLY TRULY experience in the real world, so I wont cry for an anole for the sake of my Chams Happyness no more than I would for a cricket, and frankly, nor should any one here.

 

[JackP308]

asking people whether or not they feed thier chams rodents or other small lizards is equal to asking them whether or not to house a cham in an all glass terrarium as opposed to an aluminum mesh cage. You will get answers from both sides of the argument but in the long run it all comes down to your personal decission because its your pet and how you feed it or house it matters on what you want to do. so either flip a coin or get out the old magic 8-ball or what ever you choose when making a decision.

I dont find that to be a comparison at all. Chams live anywhere you provide the proper environment. It could be a large shoe box if you kept the temps and humidity ect. proper. So glass, screen, plastic , or card board it dont matter. It all depends what works for you best.

I think people just like to feed off other animals. For amusement and could care less what the benefits it has. Or blindly take ill advise.

 

[JackP308]

..........

 

[kinyonga]

You said..."2nd vet is treating for fatty liver now because 2 blood works came back all organs functioning properly"...isn't this a contradiction??

 

[Muddyfeet]

what is the specific nutrititional benifit?

I have to ask.. as lets face it, neonate, non weaned mice would NOT be in a tree.. why pinkies? why not heck a finch or heck another lizard?? is it only because commercial rodents are what we have??

As I am NOT a reptile expert.. but heck have a lot of experience with canines.. if you feed only beef.. large animals or heck only chicken.. you get a huge set of problems.. variety Is the key, and frankly with canines.. smaller game should make up most..

the nutritional composition of say a rodent.. is DIFRRENT then a insect.. or other small reptile, or heck avian... why not if say Warm blooded prey is of benefit then why not say oh a finch or lizard?? what does a non weaned mouse offer that a adult rodent? or heck a small bird or reptile offer??
IF animal protein and fat etc is of benefit.. then why not a SPECIES appropriate animal.. bird, adult rodent, lizard?? why always oh a pinkie?? many snakes suffer from nutritional issues, fed only frozen or live non weaned "pinky" mice.. so how does offering the same not going to come into contact with type.. of any benefit??
As for vets.. yes they are really good.. but there is a huge amount of dog and cat nutrition that is a debate.. keep in mind we have been feeding carnivores a huge amount of grains.. and now only going hum.. perhaps living vs thriving is different.. we screw dog and cats up.. and they have been domesticated.. call me a ***.. but I would take a vets recommendation on diet on a reptile with caution.. when it seems odd baised on what they can get in the wild.. and double odd when others who have lived, raised, bred chams without such things.. too
Heck ask a vet and a 75% corn diet.. yeh no problems for dogs.. and cats.. Obligate carnivores.. not opportunistic carnivores like canines.. oh a all grain diet.. dry, no moisture.. no problem...