Feeding vertebrates

[jamest0o0]

Ive read the threads and know the parasite risk with things like anoles, but as far as adding variety and giving vitamins our Chams wouldn't normally get as much of. Could there be a place in the diet for pinky mice or anoles? Surely larger Chams would eat animals like this in the wild? I'm not saying everyday or even weekly, but once every month or two for an adult panther or larger. Has anyone done this? I'm not someone that wants to do this as some cruel thing you'd see on YouTube, but as someone who's been obsessed over providing variety and driven to replicate natural environments as much as possible(in a safe manner). I'd like to read anything you guys have about this.

 

[Andee]

As far as pinky mice you wouldn't get much vitamins other than natural vitamin A etc. anoles I would personally raise my own or get them from a captive raised source just because you are less likely to get nastier parasites. Pinky mice I personally would stay away from because of the fat content and general useless other than vitamin a and a couple other things.

Honestly in my opinion it's not animal protein being directly fed to the animals that is the problem, it's animal protein and in appropriately supplemented animal protein being fed to feeder insects. I can go into it but won't unless someone asks and you would have to wait until tomorrow. And as long as you don't do it obsessivly, honestly every other month and a whole animal the size of an anole or small mouse, would not be an issue and in my opinion may be beneficial.

 

[Virgil1972]

I have feed my cham two anoles.

 

[Andee]

I mean if I am honest, it won't be pretty feeding the chams XD I feed my blue tongue a small adult mouse about... twice a month though, but he also gets a bunch of other food items, fruits and veggies, burger, meat trimmings, liver, heart, other organs, green tripe since I have it for my dog. He gets insects galore. Likely my bluey is the best fed in the world in the pet universe... Most people feed them wet dog food from what I know... and I just find that silly.

 

[Virgil1972]

I mean if I am honest, it won't be pretty feeding the chams XD I feed my blue tongue a small adult mouse about... twice a month though, but he also gets a bunch of other food items, fruits and veggies, burger, meat trimmings, liver, heart, other organs, green tripe since I have it for my dog. He gets insects galore. Likely my bluey is the best fed in the world in the pet universe... Most people feed them wet dog food from what I know... and I just find that silly.

Its makes it a little more pretty if you ask for the cute mice.

 

[JoeDigiorgio]

I release anoles periodically on my patio free range where my Meller's are. Every few weeks I put a few out there and they usually disappear over several days but they can't be escaping. I went out of my way to make my patio escape proof for my day geckos and chameleons.

 

[jamest0o0]

Thanks guys, I'm actually surprised I got some positive feedback with this. I have no idea how difficult anoles are to breed, but it might be a cool little side project to provide clean feeders. I may experiment and feed one panther an anole or maybe Pinky? a month while not doing so for my other panthers. See if I notice any differences. Would you still supplement if you did this? (I use reptivite and herptivite 1x a month each atm)

 

[Andee]

I would supplement with insect meals of course, but I don't think you'd need to use any preformed vitamin A if you did it.

And I am for this because I have researched a whole lot into it on my own. I have read from probably 5 sites who are for it, and 3-5 who are against it and I have noticed many weird things with the high protein diets that ended up causing issues that actually likely have nothing to do with feeding an animal protein (natural) directly to the reptile itself.

 

[Fireborn]

I often thought about raising captive day geckos to feed because they may be eating them in their habitat on Madagascar

 

[jamest0o0]

I saw it mentioned a few times and John Courtney-smith on the CB podcast advocated feeding pinkies, anoles, or other small vertebrates around once a month. Talked about the vitamin aspect of it and how it happens in the wild.

 

[jamest0o0]

@Fireborn Can probably guarantee parsonii are eating them

 

[JoeDigiorgio]

Anoles only lay one or 2 eggs at a time and not as often as I believe most day geckos do. I'm personally comfortable feeding wild anoles to my chameleons, or should I say, allowing my chameleons access to wild anoles. They can do what they want with them lol

I have to think reptile prey would be more readily utilized than mammal prey. The protein and fat composition in an anole is surely more suitable for chameleon use than mammal nutrients are.

I'm fairly certain that most parasites aren't transferred in this manor. From what I remember reading a while back, predator to prey relationships often cause a missed step in the natural life cycle of many parasites. This isn't 100% true of all organisms and I don't have anything scholarly to back this up at the moment but I'll look around and see what I can find.

Point being, I don't see the space and resources needed to breed anoles as being worth it for how often they'd be used as feeders. One could always feed wild anoles panacur dusted crickets for a week prior to using them, or even freeze them first of the chameleon will tong feed.

 

[Nursemaia]

I was going to feed vertebrates to my melleri once he was larger, I've seen a video of @jpowell86 melleri eating an anole. Gruesome and amazing all at once. I think the video is in his media collection if you're interested. I definitely think it's a good idea to offer it occasionally to the larger species to keep more variety in their diet. Melleri are also known as the bird eating chameleon. I know you're getting a parsoni and I think it's a good idea.
I've kicked around the idea of offering a pinky to my my female veiled once a month, I've read others do it to boost calcium but idk how much she would really get as a pinky's bones are not calcified yet and if she doesn't eat it I have a live pinky to deal with.

 

[jamest0o0]

@JoeDigiorgio I wish I lived somewhere that had anoles and reptiles running around... the best I get is 3 cute stray cats that live in the quarter acre of 'woods' behind my house.

I looked more into day geckos, maybe instead of anoles, geckos would be better. They're native to the same rainforests as parsonii.

@Nursemaia Yeah I saw that video, super cool, but felt bad for the little anole :/. I was reading the same about pinkies being mostly cartilage, and their nutrient content, such as fat % differs by the day so it's hard to tell exactly what you're giving. Still they must eat some mammals and birds, probably more than what we credit to them.

The argument I heard for feeding pinkies and other whole prey was that the organs provide vitamins our chameleons won't find elsewhere.

 

[Andee]

Anoles only lay one or 2 eggs at a time and not as often as I believe most day geckos do. I'm personally comfortable feeding wild anoles to my chameleons, or should I say, allowing my chameleons access to wild anoles. They can do what they want with them lol

I have to think reptile prey would be more readily utilized than mammal prey. The protein and fat composition in an anole is surely more suitable for chameleon use than mammal nutrients are.

I'm fairly certain that most parasites aren't transferred in this manor. From what I remember reading a while back, predator to prey relationships often cause a missed step in the natural life cycle of many parasites. This isn't 100% true of all organisms and I don't have anything scholarly to back this up at the moment but I'll look around and see what I can find.

Point being, I don't see the space and resources needed to breed anoles as being worth it for how often they'd be used as feeders. One could always feed wild anoles panacur dusted crickets for a week prior to using them, or even freeze them first of the chameleon will tong feed.

This is not correct in the insect respect, and a lot of things, certain scarier parasites that everyone always freaks out about like the neuroligical ones (like horsehair worms if I have the name correct) aren't an issue because they are very specific with what they choose as the hosts. But internal parasites, like pin worms, tape worms, coccidia etc, aren't so much.

 

[jamest0o0]

Are day geckos nutritious ? I feel like Parsons would be eating them all the time in the wild

 

[Andee]

Days geckos are nutritious as any other small lizard I would assume XD

 

[jamest0o0]

And how nutritious is that???? Lizards are pretty lean, aren't they...? Plus the additional organs and bones(yuck) would provide calcium/vitamins

 

[Andee]

What you want from vertbrate prey is extra vitamins and minerals you can't find at all in insects in decent quantities. So vitamin A would be a huge plus with the lizards. honestly it doesn't have to be a huge meal to give them what they need with most of the vitamins like that.

 

[jamest0o0]

Yeah that's what I heard, that once a month or so would be beneficial. Not that i'd do this, but would there be a downside of feeding them small lizards more often?