Female Melleri Chameleon FECAL NOT RIGHT?

[AsiaKauffman]

For all those experienced with Melleri. I have a female Melleri (xrays prove eggs september 2011 - jan 2012). I am new to keeping them, but i have had Gregory for a couple years now. I believe I have always noticed little dots in her fecal. She has no parasites and has been dewormed.

I introduced her to a male Melleri last August and she got eggs, but never breed. I know it was a male, because he died in march (reasons unknown), and i did a necropsy with my vet. Also, i read up on melleri discovery that a female that comes in contact with a immature male can help encourage eggs.

Anyway... I just bought another Melleri and since this one is healthy and Gregory hasn't shown signs of eggs, i am thinking Pip could be a girl?

Pip has the dots in the fecal as well. Now, Pip has been dewormed a couple months ago. No parasites either.

My question to all of those with Melleri... have you seen these "crystal dots" in the fecal and what are they?

I took in the sample to my vet and he can only think it is something ingested, but my point is,...... I have 2 panther males and they all eat the same routine diets and they have never had these dots.

I was thinking these dots in the urates were eggs or something related to the female stuff?

My vet thinks it has something to do with calcium and they are crystals, but he is unsure how to test. Suggestions?

He looked under the microscope and they are gritty and crystal like specs.

My chameleons are not near sand and they hand feed or cup feed.

Please let me know if you have had experience or know what this could be.

NOTE: My chameleons seem healthy (vet thinks too), eat well and get good sun, lots of bug variety.Both chameleons are wc and are dewormed/no parasites.

first fecal 1/2/12

 

[AsiaKauffman]

3/3/12 fecal

 

[AsiaKauffman]

3/3/12 fecal close up

 

[Carlton]

Certainly not eggs. Other than that, no idea unless they are some sort of crystal produced by the kidneys, or residue from digested feeders.

 

[AsiaKauffman]

Certainly not eggs. Other than that, no idea unless they are some sort of crystal produced by the kidneys, or residue from digested feeders.

thank you for your response!

 

[bluewuta]

I dont see anything that i would be worried about.

 

[AngieL]

That looks like blood in the stool.

Possible causes are-

parasites

infection

or an internal tear of some sort.

I would keep the poop and take it to the vet for tesing.


EDIT: I see you've had it tested! woopsie

 

[Carlton]

You might be able to pinpoint this by some diet changes...try different combinations or frequencies of feeders to see if the feces change.

 

[ataraxia]

What you are looking at is more than likely a result of needing more water. I dont know what your techniques are but melleri need water water and lots more water. Drainage is needed.

What is your supplement schedule?>

These are old pictures also. What do the recent ones look like?

 

[burnedrose]

Have they had a lot of soft-bodied meals lately? Like tomato worms? Sometimes that gives Kukui softer stool, but he is a male veiled. The only other thing is a lack of enough water, but I don't know about melleri much, so I don't know what type of water intake they need or how not enough effects them.

 

[AsiaKauffman]

What you are looking at is more than likely a result of needing more water. I dont know what your techniques are but melleri need water water and lots more water. Drainage is needed.

What is your supplement schedule?>

These are old pictures also. What do the recent ones look like?

That fecal is old.

I shower her 30 mins in the am and 30 mins in the pm and she drinks.

She ususally gets carnivore care/with water because she won't eat bugs. Refuses crickets,mealworms,silkworms,wax worm, butterworms, so i just give her carnivore care and she likes it. She lived on carnivore care for a year when she was getting over Calcium Def.

She loves the shower and i see her drinking. She did have eggs from 9/11 - 1/6. reabsorbed.

I am waiting for her to poop again and i will post a fresh one.

When i get my microscope camera adapter in shortly, i will be taking a photo and see if there is anything in it.

She was dewormed 2 years ago, but maybe she needs it again?

I did have her on neo-calglubonate every day or other day instead of any calcium supplements, but now i want everyone on the same thing.

I just got on a schedule with calcium no d3 mon,weds,fri, then sat a multi and calcium withd3, mix into the carnivore care unless i force her to eat a cricket. I gutload the crickets with cricket crack, kale, collard greens, orange, carrots, ect.

she gets natural sun everyday and uvb when it's bad out.

She is more active in the morning, but will just sit in the same place most of the day.

 

[ataraxia]

Personally, im not really familiar with carnivore care but if she has lived on it for a year something has to be some what ok or the long term use has not shown effects yet.

Supplements: I would not give her any d3 what so ever. With her lighting schedule she is getting all she needs. Plain phos free caclium should be used and a good multivitamin once a month. Gut lloading is essential an i urge you to read sandrachameleon or ferretsinmyshoes blogs on the subject.

I dont know the tole reabsorbing eggs take on a melleri. In other reptiles from experience it has not been a good outcome.

Possible parasite question: Two years ago. Was she treated by a vet? I really dont think it is the issue here. To rule it out though it would be a good idea to confirm it with the next stool.

Showers in the morning and nite are great but if you can sneak in on in the middle of the day that would be better. If your humidity is subpar you may need to add a few more

I think it would be best for you to fill out the how to ask for help form so we can see your complete care on this girl. I would like to know temps, humidity and such..

 

[AsiaKauffman]

Personally, im not really familiar with carnivore care but if she has lived on it for a year something has to be some what ok or the long term use has not shown effects yet.

Supplements: I would not give her any d3 what so ever. With her lighting schedule she is getting all she needs. Plain phos free caclium should be used and a good multivitamin once a month. Gut lloading is essential an i urge you to read sandrachameleon or ferretsinmyshoes blogs on the subject.

I dont know the tole reabsorbing eggs take on a melleri. In other reptiles from experience it has not been a good outcome.

Possible parasite question: Two years ago. Was she treated by a vet? I really dont think it is the issue here. To rule it out though it would be a good idea to confirm it with the next stool.

Showers in the morning and nite are great but if you can sneak in on in the middle of the day that would be better. If your humidity is subpar you may need to add a few more

I think it would be best for you to fill out the how to ask for help form so we can see your complete care on this girl. I would like to know temps, humidity and such..

Ya, i don't know the effects on carnivore care. I do know when i got her on neo-calglucon (daily) with carnivore care she went from 85% to 98% in a matter of weeks and then started eating bugs and got eggs and just overall looked healthy.

Now for the kicker...i bought a wc melleri that was sick looking ( i want to take in sick chams and learn from them). He (found out later was confirmed in the necropsy he was a boy), had parasites. Now i did quarantine him and he had 2 treatments. fecal was good. then i introduced him to her and they became 2 peas in a pod. I wonder if she could have parasites and will be getting the next fecal checked. The vet didn't think the poop sample i gave monday had parasites, but it looked like crystals or sand/crunchy dots in it. but didn't know how to test it.

I've never had a chameleon reabsorb eggs so this is new to me and she was fine before she got eggs. after eggs, she stopped taking bugs and we moved and then cammy died (unknown) and i don't know if those can affect her, but i am sure they can.

where is the how to ask for help form located? I don't use the forum much, so i can get back with you on this.

Also, ferretinmyshoes is an amazing person and very knowledgable. I have been picking her brain on a few of my case studies and i believe in her 100%.

i will get back with you and i appreciate all the help!

 

[ataraxia]

https://www.chameleonforums.com/how-ask-help-66/

The vet didn't think the poop sample i gave monday had parasites, but it looked like crystals or sand/crunchy dots in it. but didn't know how to test it.

Dehydration, foreign contaminates like smoke, excessive animal proteins, excessive supplement d3 are not good on the kidneys. Im not saying your girl has kidney failure but past and present care van be taking its tole on them. Best care at the moment is to eliminate any of the above and give as much water in several water sessions. I would not allow all of my water to come from one or two sessions. 3-5 would be optimum atm.

http://www.phoenixherp.com/joomla/images/phoenixherp/PDFs/renal system.pdf

 

[AsiaKauffman]

https://www.chameleonforums.com/how-ask-help-66/



Dehydration, foreign contaminates like smoke, excessive animal proteins, excessive supplement d3 are not good on the kidneys. Im not saying your girl has kidney failure but past and present care van be taking its tole on them. Best care at the moment is to eliminate any of the above and give as much water in several water sessions. I would not allow all of my water to come from one or two sessions. 3-5 would be optimum atm.

http://www.phoenixherp.com/joomla/images/phoenixherp/PDFs/renal system.pdf

Thank you for your input! I will be hydrating all the chams much more and see what happens! So... i took a look at the back of the carnivore package...it has d3 in it and some other stuff. I don't understand what the IU/kg means and how to tell what is too much. Please let me know what you think............

Ingredients
Dried Whole Egg, Poultry Meal, Fish Oil, Tricalcium Phosphate, Silicone Dioxide, Calcium Carbonate, Choline Chloride, Biotin, Taurine, Hydrolyzed Yeast, Sodium Benzoate, L-carnitine, L-Ascorbyl-2- Monophosphate (Vitamin C), Vitamin E Supplement, Niacin Supplement, Zinc Sulfate, Potassium Iodide, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Manganese Sulfate, Copper Sulfate, Riboflavin Supplement, d-Calcium Pantothenate, Vitamin A Supplement, Thiamine Mononitrate, Folic Acid, Pyroxine Hydrochloride, Vitamin D3 Supplement

Guaranteed Analysis
Crude Protein (min) 45.00%
Crude Fat (min) 32.00%
Crude Fiber (max) 3.00%
Moisture (max) 10.00%
Ash (max) 8.00%
Calcium (min) 1.40%
Calcium (max) 1.80%
Phosphorus 1.20%
Copper (min) 10 mg/kg
Vitamin A (min) 25,000 IU/kg
Vitamin D3 (min) 1,850 IU/kg
Vitamin E (min) 150 IU/kg
Taurine 0.20%
Ascorbic Acid (Vit. C) (min)* 400 mg/kg
L-Carnitine 500 mg/kg
Omega 3 Fatty Acid (min)* 1.00%
Omega 6 Fatty Acid (min)* 7.60%
Metabolizable Energy (Calculated) 24 kcal/Tbsp

 

[ataraxia]

Me personally i would discontinue use of that product. Im sure melleri have a small amount of animal protein within there natural diet but it is unknown to me what amounts are safe. These creatures are able to balance there nutritional needs in the wild where we are limiting them in captivity.

You can make your own mush feed with (however many you think she needs) feeders of your choice, pedialyte, plain bottled water, pinch of plain calcium. Place in a zip lock baggie and do what you need to. cut the corner off like a pastry bag and use what you need to.

 

[AsiaKauffman]

Me personally i would discontinue use of that product. Im sure melleri have a small amount of animal protein within there natural diet but it is unknown to me what amounts are safe. These creatures are able to balance there nutritional needs in the wild where we are limiting them in captivity.

You can make your own mush feed with (however many you think she needs) feeders of your choice, pedialyte, plain bottled water, pinch of plain calcium. Place in a zip lock baggie and do what you need to. cut the corner off like a pastry bag and use what you need to.

She survived on carnivore care only for a year, along with calcium injections. But ya, now i am curious. I was thinking about going back to forcing her to eat and put her on the same bugs and dustings as the other lizards and see what happens.

How long do you think it would take to make a difference, since they are cold blooded? Well, i'll be keeping up with the fecals from now on and then i can test the "how long til the fecal is normal" if i just do bugs and see if it improves.

Thanks for the bug smoothie/mixture idea.