Female Veiled full of eggs, not digging...

[Eva]

My first post on here...so here goes, I have a female veiled cham (Eva), She is probably about a year and a half old, she last layed eggs back in May (six months ago) and had no problems, 58 eggs!
Recently (about 2 weeks ago) she stopped having bowel movements regularly (previously she was perfect with every other day) After about 10 days and not a significant bowel movement I brought her to the vet clinic (where I work) We did an x-ray, enema and gave oral lactulose (stool softener). The x-ray showed that she was very full of eggs! She has shown none of the signs she did last time, (wandering the bottom of her enclosure or digging) I had a laying bin in her enclosure and have now added a second in case she disliked the first. (She is difficult to handle, I am basically just a giant cricket bringer, if I don't come with food I am the enemy)
It's now been a week and a half since her x-ray and still no digging, she is still eating like a champ and acting normal.

Sorry this is so long, but my question is: when do I get concerned about her not digging and laying these eggs? In her x-ray she look ready, very full, She practically had eggs all the way up to her lungs!!

Thanks so much for any advice...Will try to post picture of her x-ray if I can figure out how...

 

[Elizadolots]

If it's not a digital x-ray, you could try putting your monitor on a white page and taping the x-ray in front of the monitor so the monitor light shines through it, then taking a picture of that with a camera. You can try scanning it. Put a bright white paper behind it.

To post a picture, have it on your computer, then use the "Post Reply" button (not the handy quick reply box). That will give you an "attach" icon (looks like a paperclip). Click that and follow the prompts to find the picture on your computer and attach it. We will see a thumbnail which enlarges when we click on it.

Does the vet you work for deal with chameleons? If not, does he/she have a relationship with a reptile vet that can be tapped? Maybe your vet can send the x-ray over and get an opinion on whether it's time to try inducing and how much medication should be used.

 

[Eva]

Thank you for your prompt reply! Yes my vet sees reptiles, we don't get a lot of chameleons in though. Im not real sure if she knows when it is time to induce or not. Films were digital, I took a picture with my phone, will try to upload, otherwise can take one with my regular camara when I am back at work Tuesday.

 

[Eva]

Eva's x-ray

 

[kinyonga]

When did she have MBD??

I can't tell you when it would be appropriate to induce her when she isn't producing fertile eggs. Generally they cycle every 120 or 130 days but reproduction seems to be affected by diet and possibly temperature plays a part too...and that can change the cycle.

Signs that a chameleon is heading towards eggbinding include but are limited to these signs...lethargy, sitting near the bottom of the cage or even on the floor of the cage, eyes sinking in, may dig a hole and act like she is laying eggs then fill the hole in without having laid eggs, etc. The problem is that by the time she starts to show these signs its too late for oxytocin and likely too late for spaying.

 

[Elizadolots]

kinyonga, in your experience, is it ever too early to administer oxytocin when the eggs are infertile?

If they were fertile, of course you'd want to wait as long as possible to ensure the best outcome for the eggs, but if the eggs are of no value, then is there a problem with inducing early?

 

[kinyonga]

IMHO regardless of the eggs being fertile or infertile, there seems to be a window of time when the oxytocin works...but I'm not a vet and can't be 100% sure.

 

[Elizadolots]

Isn't it that the window closes? In humans, you can induce labor way too early to result in a healthy baby, but once labor has gone far enough along, it won't help (and sometimes, it just doesn't, I'll testify to that). My suspicion would be that it's not dangerous to the female to induce early, it just means the eggs won't be viable, which they aren't anyway.

Oh, and I suspect your comment about MBD might be the first the OP has heard of that possibility, though, it's pretty clear in the x-ray that it's either a past or current issue.

 

[kinyonga]

I asked about the MBD to see if it had been corrected.

Its dangerous to use oxytocin if the "eggs" have not yet ovulated. I don't know if it would be okay after they had ovulated or not for sure. I was always told that there are a certain few days that it will work.

 

[Elizadolots]

While I understand that things are different with reptiles, "ovulation" typically means when the eggs leave the "ovaries" and move to the uterus. Eggs that are "up to her lungs" would seem to fit that....but maybe they are just that different?

It's a measure of how little time actual vets have spent researching this issue that it's not a known thing. Or maybe we just aren't tapping the right resource? Maybe Chris Anderson would have this answer?

 

[Eva]

Thank you for all of your responses. At the vet clinic I work at we see the pet store animals, she came in from the pet store looking near death, severe mbd, the store had had her for about 2-3 months with improper care, we began treatment then the store decided it would be too expensive and so asked if any of the employees wanted to special needs adopt her. I then took her home and continued treatment. This was october 2010. Her 3 months later x-rays looked awesome comparatively speaking. I felt her bones in this film looked pretty good too. She does have obvious healed fractures, you can see this just from looking at her physically too.

So october 2010 she has mbd, then may 2011 she layer 58 eggs without a problem. Im not sure why she is having a problem this time around. I did read (on her from another thread) about temperature playing a role....

 

[DavidBuchan]

So october 2010 she has mbd, then may 2011 she layer 58 eggs without a problem. Im not sure why she is having a problem this time around. I did read (on her from another thread) about temperature playing a role....

Hello, welcome to the forum the higher the temps and the more food she has then the more eggs she'll lay (and more often too). It sounds like a reduction in temps and or a diet would be a good idea for her

 

[lindawaz]

Here is a link on how you can use temps and feeding to reduce or possibly stop them from laying clutches.

http://raisingkittytheveiledchameleon.blogspot.com/2007/12/keeping-female-veiled.html

I hope it works for you and your cham and she lays those eggs real soon

 

[ferretinmyshoes]

I totally missed this thread! Awesome x-ray to show both the healing fractures of MBD and so many eggs in development! May have to use it as an example in the future...

To answer the oxytocin question for anyone still wondering, or just for future reference: oxytocin is a hormone that is naturally present in a mammalian female in labor, or in this case a reptile ready to lay eggs. It is only released when the female is ready to give birth or lay eggs and if given too soon the uterus may not respond to it as the receptors are not available to bind to it. Or if the gestation is far enough along that the receptors are available but the eggs aren't ready you risk doing significant damage with frivolous use of oxytocin. As a bonus, it also triggers the release of milk in mammals for nursing.

If you give oxytocin before the eggs are ready to be laid the uterus may contract and contract and contract but the eggs are not shelled enough to give the muscle anything to push on and you could rupture the eggs in the body or at the least completely fatigue the uterine muscles and probably damage them. Or worse, if the egg is still anchored to ovary you could cause tissue damage to the whole reproductive tract and a bleed could cause your chameleon to bleed to death internally.

Oxytocin should never be given unless the animal is already in stages of labor. In mammals you should never oxytocin if there is a risk that the fetus may be stuck (like if it is not coming out right or it is too big) for the reasons mentioned above like unshelled eggs, and you should never give it if uterine contractions are not already occurring. If you give it before the cervix is open and the uterus starts pushing then you can kill the fetus and cause damage to the uterus, possibly even rupture it, and a bleed from that will kill. We can apply the same concepts to chameleons. If you give it too early you risk damage and injury. Oxytocin cannot be used to abort an infertile clutch.

In this case oxytocin would have been a terrible mistake since the eggs are still clearly in the follicular stage as they are small and unshelled and most likely have not fully left the ovary like kinyonga suspected.

It's a measure of how little time actual vets have spent researching this issue that it's not a known thing. Or maybe we just aren't tapping the right resource?

Thanks for the vote of confidence...actually a great deal of info is well known on the subject.

 

[Eva]

Ferret: thanks for all of your information! I also have a good picture of her x-rays when she first came into my care (practically zero bone density) and her recheck films 3 months later! I am on my phone right now and its acting funny and not letting me upload....will upload as soon as I can. The xrays are amazing in my opinion what proper care can do in such a short amount of time!

 

[ferretinmyshoes]

I would LOVE to see the x-rays! I love to see progression of cases!!

 

[Eva]

This is a picture of the films taken by my old cell phone, I can potentially burn a copy of the films and open on my computer and they would be much better quality....

 

[Eva]

Eva the day I met her, at the bottom of a small aquarium near death, second picture is my beautiful girl in all her glory enjoying some sunshine!

 

[lindawaz]

What a wonderful story, I am so happy you took her in and I am sure she is too!

Kudos to you for opening up your heart and home to her

 

[K9Luvn]

She is beautiful! Thank you for what you are doing for her.