Foggers, a Tool or a Danger?

[Kristen Wilkins]

I think that is where we see separation between the fog I get, in my area. Where you can see through it, about 40-50 ft but not further, and the fog the foggers put out that you cant see an inch passed, I think the later the "wetting fog" is 100% RH.

Could be completely off base though.

I had read about this long ago, and read that link, and I think that is basic of what I remeber, but I would have to look more in depth, they kind of touch on that with what you posted too though.

It’s a great read , a quick understandable resource . My son did a report on this along with different species a few years back .

 

[PetNcs]

My experimenrs show the following:

High humidity prevents desiccation
Fog hydrates

i have even not dared to to to experiments that would only make unnatural artificial conditions in captivity to increase humidity and put fog at high temps at daytime as this does NOT reflect the natural
Humidity cycles and I consider it unethical and animal abuse

so, I will never have answer to this question as ai will never do such experiments

there is enough evidence however From
The wrong husbandry approaches that high temps and fog at badly ventilated cages at daytime potents the development of RI (i do not say it is the cause)

 

[PetNcs]

So my next question would be why does it have to happen at night? If temperatures are kept appropriate during the day then there shouldn’t be a risk of respiratory infections. So if humidity is kept high during the day wouldn’t that accomplish the same thing? Humidity should be ensuring hydration regardless of when it happens.

This is not a challenge, this is a genuine quest for understanding.

please read my comments with focus on detail
I have never said that high air humidity is ensuring hydration

it is a factor in relation to it but I am rather convinced it does
Not hydrate it means it does
Not enable significant water intake to the organism

while fog does

 

[PetNcs]

I am just curious: you insisted on postins my animals in the experiment
So I did
No comment ar all? Nothing unusual? All ok? Or was it just a challenge?

People do jot need to keep Chameleons
NOW to have valid experience and say the right things though I do
Hundreds of

 

[cyberlocc]

please read my comments with focus on detail
I have never said that high air humidity is ensuring hydration

it is a factor in relation to it but I am rather convinced it does
Not hydrate it means it does
Not enable significant water intake to the organism

while fog does

Petr, did you not read the prior couple of posts?

I'm confused what you think Fog is, FOG is highly humid, 100% RH Air molecules.

Fog - Like clouds, fog is made up of condensed water droplets which are the result of the air being cooled to the point (actually, the dewpoint) where it can no longer hold all of the water vapor it contains. For clouds, that cooling is almost always the result of rising of air, which cools from expansion.
https://weatherstreet.com/weatherquestions/What_causes_fog.htm

Fog is "High Air Humidity".....

 

[PetNcs]

Im going to go with there need to be a changing temperature. This is why the fogging recommendation is also mixed with the 18c night time temps at the same time. If cham,air, and fog are all the same temps, no change in moisture will occur. The cham will not dehydrate, the air will not increase in humidity, and the fog will not dissipate. But what if you have a constantly dropping temperature? This will cause warm bodies to release "fog" which also raises humidity. And during the morning dew stage, you have a cham that is colder than the air, breathing in a lot of condensation. You have warm humid air going into a cold chameleon, and condensing. I think is the time the chameleon is "hydrating". I dont think the chameleon is hydrating when its warmer than the air, i think its doing it when its colder than the air.


But that is assuming they are hydrating through the lungs or if they are hydrating through the sinuses/throat before it reaches the lungs. Kinda like humans warm and moisten air with the nose before it reaches the lungs, and also rehydrates the sinuses when they breath out.

With all respect, I do nit think that your speculation works. There are for sure different mechanisms than the described changes if temperatures and difference between the body and air temps. Chameleons are so tiny that their temperature copies the temps of the surrounding air almost perfectly or with a very minute and insignificant delay. For mechanisms as you describe, you would need much bigger body mass first and the process would have to last very long, I guess hours to have a measureable effect.
Chameleons can have a slightly higher temp than air when they are basking but stay at same temp as air in the night without any irradiation-type of IR source.
i have tried to detect chameleons with an IR camera just after sunset and during the night. Hopeless. They are of exact same temp as their surrounding.
The mechanism must be different from your apeculation, I respect your creativity but IMHO and with no offense meant, please accept my NO to your concept

 

[cyberlocc]

With all respect, I do nit think that your speculation works. There are fir sure different mechanisms than the described changes if temperatures and difference between the body and air temps. Chameleons are so tiny that their temperatire copies the temps of the surrounding air almost perfectly or with a very minute and insignificant delay. For mexhanisms as toundescribe, yoj would need much bigger body mass first and the orocess would habe to last very long, I guess hours to have a measurea le effext.
Chameleons can have a sligjtly higjer tep than air whe. They are basking but stay at same temp as air in the night without any irradiation-type of IR source either way.
i have tried to detect chameleons with an IR camera just after sunset and during the night. Hopeless. They are of exact same temp as their surrounding.
The mechanism must be different from your apeculation, i reapect your creativity but IMHO annd with no offende meant, please accept my NO to your concept

Chameleons body is not the same temp as the air, when they are basking.

He said the hydrating comes during the time they are basking, when their body is colder than the air. IE when they are basking.

 

[kinyonga]

@PetNcs said...."i have tried to detect chameleons with an IR camera just after sunset and during the night. Hopeless. They are of exact same temp as their surrounding"... Interesting idea...using the camera.

 

[ferretinmyshoes]

i have even not dared to to to experiments that would only make unnatural artificial conditions in captivity to increase humidity and put fog at high temps at daytime as this does NOT reflect the natural
Humidity cycles and I consider it unethical and animal abuse

so, I will never have answer to this question as ai will never do such experiments

Isn’t Florida exactly that experiment? When humidity is very high during the day with high temperatures. Seems like those populations are thriving?

 

[cyberlocc]

Isn’t Florida exactly that experiment? When humidity is very high during the day with high temperatures. Seems like those populations are thriving?

So is Madagascar, I had posted that one day back in January in the thread with Bill, it was 93f and 88% RH for the entire afternoon.

Its 90+ and 78%+ every day this week in Ambilobe.

 

[PetNcs]

Isn’t Florida exactly that experiment? When humidity is very high during the day with high temperatures. Seems like those populations are thriving?

Well, valid point
This happens in Florida sure in the summer

in comparison to Yemen, I would in NO means say the populations are thriving: nothing to compare with their natural habitat first
They live on the edge of their bilogical tollerance in FL IMHO and the fact, rhat such a highly adaptable species, can survive there under open skies and with wind and air movement and living planta alm around etc etc is not a reason for experimenting with it in captivity IMHO, when we can not simulate all the aspects of natural enviromnment in a big volume

 

[Kristen Wilkins]

@PetNcs which fogger do you use personally and or do you recommend to other keepers ?

 

[cyberlocc]

Well, valid point
This happens in Florida sure in the summer

in comparison to Yemen, I would in NO means say the populations are thriving: nothing to compare with their natural habitat first
They live on the edge of their bilogical tollerance in FL IMHO and the fact, rhat such a highly adaptable species, can survive there under open skies and with wind and air movement and living planta alm around etc etc is not a reason for experimenting with it in captivity IMHO, when we can not simulate all the aspects of natural enviromnment in a big volume

Right so that covers Yemen Chameleons, so is the Theory based solely on them?

That is the natural humidity cycle. Of course it goes up as it cools, its still over 85f, and 80% humidity for a large portion of the wet season.

 

[PetNcs]

@PetNcs which fogger do you use personally and or do you recommend to other keepers ?

I live in Europe and Asia
So I can hardly advice what is available in the Us where most of you guys are

i have however. It boticed any dofference in the usage of foggers be it from regular store fir household use tomindustrial ones. As long as they lrodice cold fog they work

 

[Kristen Wilkins]

I live in Europe and Asia
So I can hardly advice what is available in the Us where most of you guys are

i have however. It boticed any dofference in the usage of foggers be it from regular store fir household use tomindustrial ones. As long as they lrodice cold fog they work

I never said I live in the US . I simply asked what you use what you recommend .

 

[nightanole]

Chameleons are air temp? I thought chams were "object temp". In the morning grass isnt air temp, its below, its why its wet. Unless im completely off base. I agree with using an IR camera, and all reptiles are invisible because they are the same temp as the object they are on/in.

 

[PetNcs]

Im really interested in other people’s thoughts as well so hopefully others will chime in. The most common thing we hear about daytime fogging heat+stagnant air+humid air causes RI. The thing is I really don’t think we’ve had enough time with the new wave of mainstream fogging to really get an understanding if this is really true or not. Just needs more time and research I think before any conclusions should be made.

Well no offense, this is you who are behind, not those keepers that practice it for months, years and decades... and millions years ehind the daily practice by chameleons

 

[PetNcs]

Chameleons are air temp? I thought chams were "object temp". In the morning grass isnt air temp, its below, its why its wet. Unless im completely off base. I agree with using an IR camera, and all reptiles are invisible because they are the same temp as the object they are on/in.

if chameleons would be onject temp, they would have tknuse comvection for gaining heat from surrounding objects.
As knowingly they are attached to the surrounding objects just jsing timy feet and tail, theynrather synchronize their body temperature with the air than with the objects they sit on
Unlike many Uromastyx, iguanids etc

 

[PetNcs]

The animals ate in superb condition, shed perfectly and reproduce...
I guess this is the first time when you see pics like this or am I mistaken?

Really wondering that no one of the experts here commented on the photos and even recognized the species...

 

[Rlc1994]

Well no offense, this is you who are behind, not those keepers that practice it for months, years and decades... and millions years ehind the daily practice by chameleons

I understand the need for high humidity and Fog because it replicates the chameleons environment. I’m all for that and currently have been Fogging for a year now with no ill effects. It’s a great. I love it.

BUT what the question from ferret was and what Im interested in is why is this Fogging/High humidity done at night or when the temperatures are low? If you look at the day to day weather forecast in some of these chameleons habitats they are still very humid even during 90-100 degree days. So hot+humid air this should equal chameleons running around with RI in the wild everywhere right? I don’t study these animals in the wild but I’m pretty sure thats not the case.