For everyone who KNOWS you can't keep chams in glass

[JerCat]

Ok So I have my baby veiled in a glass terrarium, it was recommended by the guy at the local reptile store(his wife actually raises chams). And I have read alot of things about how it is bad to keep them in glass. I am very confused about the whole situation. Anyways today he has climbed onto his water leaf ( I have a beta rest leaf that his little dripper drips onto and pools before it falls to the ground) and kept trying to climb onto the glass. He has already fallen three times... so I thought maybe he was seeing a reflect of the leaf and thinking he could climb too it.. but if so that means he would be also seeing his own reflection every once in a while. Anyways I dunno what i should do because everytime he falls he turns dark brown and I think its making him mad.

 

[sdheli420]

Ok So I have my baby veiled in a glass terrarium, it was recommended by the guy at the local reptile store(his wife actually raises chams). And I have read alot of things about how it is bad to keep them in glass. I am very confused about the whole situation. Anyways today he has climbed onto his water leaf ( I have a beta rest leaf that his little dripper drips onto and pools before it falls to the ground) and kept trying to climb onto the glass. He has already fallen three times... so I thought maybe he was seeing a reflect of the leaf and thinking he could climb too it.. but if so that means he would be also seeing his own reflection every once in a while. Anyways I dunno what i should do because everytime he falls he turns dark brown and I think its making him mad.

just one more reason i dont use glass...

to me its just personal, i find the glass users more of a stubborn group( or extramley knowlageable in chameleons)!!! vs. the "whats best for my cham" kind ( this is purley IMHO)..and i still use glass for babies and raising hatchlings, and also pygmy chams..but chameleons in general are very visual creatures and i think the screen offers them a visual barrier they can understand vs. and alien invisible one..

now do i like glass visually HELL YES soo much cleaner looking and more display style!! i love all my paludariums, and pygmy set ups..

p.s. this is not a stike at the ones that use glass again ( IMHO only)

 

[ISA my Veiled]

just one more reason i dont use glass...

to me its just personal, i find the glass users more of a stubborn group( or extramley knowlageable in chameleons)!!! vs. the "whats best for my cham" kind ( this is purley IMHO)..and i still use glass for babies and raising hatchlings, and also pygmy chams..but chameleons in general are very visual creatures and i think the screen offers them a visual barrier they can understand vs. and alien invisible one..

now do i like glass visually HELL YES soo much cleaner looking and more display style!! i love all my paludariums, and pygmy set ups..

p.s. this is not a stike at the ones that use glass again ( IMHO only)

I agree with you, to be honest there seems to be a lot more disadvantages of glass terrariums versus a screen one. And it seems to have less benefits than a screen cage from what I have learned so far in my chameleon experience. Not saying Exo terra is bad but I think for different reptiles it is perfect. But chameleons seem to be a whole different creature than most.

 

[sdheli420]

I agree with you, to be honest there seems to be a lot more disadvantages of glass terrariums versus a screen one. And it seems to have less benefits than a screen cage from what I have learned so far in my chameleon experience. Not saying Exo terra is bad but I think for different reptiles it is perfect. But chameleons seem to be a whole different creature than most.

true..

one thing i can say, is that i would reccomend glass for small and baby chams, or if you have good experience in chameleon care and their needs (say like 5 years or so)..glass does have its benifets like for instance in uk or pretty much any place where you would have difficulty keeping temps constant, or humidity..(but plastic wrapped around three sides could remedy that problem with a screen cage as well)..

in the end its all personal preference (i just like to go with personal preference of my chams)

but i cant really add to this subject as i only keep a small amount of chams in glass (like pygmys, thats it) all my other chams are free ranged and have never had such great results from them..(thats also another touchy subject, and requires experience, room, and the proper set up)..

to each his\her own right?..

i just never had a cham want to hang out as much with me when they are caged, glass or screen..

p.s. they really do love to hang out when they are free ranged for some reason..

 

[Zach Valois]

Chris,

any chance of an update on these setups. Production and long term maintaining results, plant growth, other pros and cons that have revealed?

 

[Chris Anderson]

Ok So I have my baby veiled in a glass terrarium, it was recommended by the guy at the local reptile store(his wife actually raises chams). And I have read alot of things about how it is bad to keep them in glass. I am very confused about the whole situation. Anyways today he has climbed onto his water leaf ( I have a beta rest leaf that his little dripper drips onto and pools before it falls to the ground) and kept trying to climb onto the glass. He has already fallen three times... so I thought maybe he was seeing a reflect of the leaf and thinking he could climb too it.. but if so that means he would be also seeing his own reflection every once in a while. Anyways I dunno what i should do because everytime he falls he turns dark brown and I think its making him mad.

It sounds to me like this is indicative of a broader issue with your setup than the glass enclosure itself. I recommend posting another thread describing your enclosure and hopefully include photos, etc. It sounds to me like you don't have adequate foliage cover in the enclosure and possibly branches that are too large or smooth. Make another thread with photos and we can help you figure out whats going on.

I agree with you, to be honest there seems to be a lot more disadvantages of glass terrariums versus a screen one. And it seems to have less benefits than a screen cage from what I have learned so far in my chameleon experience. Not saying Exo terra is bad but I think for different reptiles it is perfect. But chameleons seem to be a whole different creature than most.

Unfortunately lumping approximately 200 species of chameleon into a single category is not indicative of the broad range of requirements different species have. If you are keeping veiled and panther chameleons (as I believe you both are), then I don't disagree that screen enclosures probably make more sense for a number of reasons. When you are keeping most of the other species or live in an environment where central air and/or harsh winters suck the humidity out of the air, I don't know that I would agree with you at all. There are more than one way to do things and glass terrariums take some different (not necessarily more difficult) strategies, but when done correctly, can yield excellent results.

Chris,

any chance of an update on these setups. Production and long term maintaining results, plant growth, other pros and cons that have revealed?

I still love these setups. I wish I had more space and money to get a bunch of the new tall models that have come out since I set my setup up (they have a line of 36" tall models now). The plants grow like crazy and can quickly take over the enclosure if you're not careful. This can be good and bad so its a matter of balancing it.

One con I've noticed relates to having a lot of these enclosure set up on a single misting system. The problem is different mist heads (the same model) will give off slightly different amounts of water depending on where they are along the line, how much calcium buildup is in/on the head, etc. With screen enclosures with a drainage system in place, you can mist the heck out of the cages and its no big deal. With the glass you obviously have to be more careful with the amount you mist or it will flood the cage. Calibrating a single mist duration for 25 glass enclosures is difficult as a couple enclosures are bound to get too much water and a couple others are bound to not get enough, so you have to monitor it. I really just need to get a couple additional pumps so I can split it but just haven't wanted to spend the money to do it.

Chris

 

[Zach Valois]

Chris,

thank you for taking the time to post an update. How have your larger montanes been doing (e.g. T. quadricornus)?

What is the range of your humidity levels and are you using the tank tops as is (completely open screen tops)?

You are still using one 5.0 reptisun compact and one 6500k cfl for the larger species in these tanks? This provide proper thermoregulation for the larger species housed in these tanks? What is your supplement regime with such species and the given lighting?

Have you produced from the larger species in these setups?

Sincere thanks

 

[Arch1e]

good to know!

 

[Chris Anderson]

Chris,

thank you for taking the time to post an update. How have your larger montanes been doing (e.g. T. quadricornus)?

What is the range of your humidity levels and are you using the tank tops as is (completely open screen tops)?

You are still using one 5.0 reptisun compact and one 6500k cfl for the larger species in these tanks? This provide proper thermoregulation for the larger species housed in these tanks? What is your supplement regime with such species and the given lighting?

Have you produced from the larger species in these setups?

Sincere thanks

I actually stopped keeping larger chameleon species not long after switching to these enclosures so I've not tried to keep or breed adults of the larger species in them. That is one reason I'd like to get some of the 36" tall versions.

I don't have humidity gauges in the cages so I couldn't give you a value or range. I do use the normal tops with the fitted hoods on the back. I mist once a day and you can see and tell it holds the humidity a lot better than the screen enclosures. I do have some of these enclosures in the lab with chameleons in them as well though so I just put a digital temp/humidity gauge in one that I misted about 19 hours ago and the humidity reading is currently 75% (you just aren't going to hold humidity like that in screen enclosures at most people's houses).

I do still use a ReptiGlo 5.0 and 6500K CFL on each enclosure but I have also added a 40-60W bulb to the front corner of some enclosures for additional basking. Some species, and particularly reproductive females, seemed to enjoy more basking and seem to appreciate it.

Best,

Chris

 

[ISA my Veiled]

Unfortunately lumping approximately 200 species of chameleon into a single category is not indicative of the broad range of requirements different species have. If you are keeping veiled and panther chameleons (as I believe you both are), then I don't disagree that screen enclosures probably make more sense for a number of reasons. When you are keeping most of the other species or live in an environment where central air and/or harsh winters suck the humidity out of the air, I don't know that I would agree with you at all. There are more than one way to do things and glass terrariums take some different (not necessarily more difficult) strategies, but when done correctly, can yield excellent results.

Chris

I'm not trying to start an argument by any means, but for breeds such as pygmies and smaller chameleons, yes it would make sense to have like an EXO-TERRA enclosure sure. But would you have a parsonni in a glass enclosure? No, I wouldnt think so. I dont even think you could get a glass enclosure big enough to be honest unless you customized it. My point in the last post is that the glass and lack of air flow seem to really make for more problems then good unless you have a couple of spare hours daily that you want to clean and make sure no mold, or water is sitting in your enclosure. The drainage sucks, it would be hard to customize it i would imagine unless you build your own glass enclosure. So the water would sit at the bottom and just let bacteria grow. The stress of your chameleon possibly seeing itself could be a huge problem and lead to stress. It doesn't give as much room as a screen cage unless you like i have said before, spend a ton of money on a huge custom enclosure,could lead to possible obesity because lack of exercise and movement. Unless you have a bunch of free ranging setups it just makes no sense. The bottom is harder to cover up effectively, unlike Reptibreeze, DIY cages, and some other name brands that give you a plate to fit in the bottom for easy cleaning and easier drainage. Unlike if you had the glass terrarium it would be hard to keep something in the bottom like paper towel without having to clean it everyday considering you really dont want a substrate unless it is a pygmie chameleon.
I do see some advantages though saying all of that. The humidity would be a tad easier to control, the temperatures although could get way to hot because of the glass and lack of air flow, could also regulate the temperature gradient in the enclosure, the look may be a little more "Showy" if you are displaying.

And by no means was I lumping the 200 chameleon species, my thing is just about everyone owns about the 10 most popular species(including panther locales) so it doesnt make sense to include the huge variety of chameleons that most of the average hobbyists dont own. That is just my thoughts on it so that you could understand me better chris. Thank you for the article i did enjoy it a lot. Hope to hear back from you!

 

[Chris Anderson]

I'm not trying to start an argument by any means, but for breeds such as pygmies and smaller chameleons, yes it would make sense to have like an EXO-TERRA enclosure sure. But would you have a parsonni in a glass enclosure? No, I wouldnt think so. I dont even think you could get a glass enclosure big enough to be honest unless you customized it.

In your previous post you stated that "to be honest there seems to be a lot more disadvantages of glass terrariums versus a screen one. And it seems to have less benefits than a screen cage from what I have learned so far in my chameleon experience." This is not directed at the Exo Terra terrariums specifically, but glass terrariums in general and I'm telling you that your statement is incorrect because you can not characterize all chameleons the same way. Regarding your claim that you would not keep C. parsonii in a glass terrarium, I also disagree. You can custom build or purchase large custom built terrariums which would be completely appropriate to house C. parsonii in (there are photos in this thread of adult C. parsonii in glass terrariums in fact). You can also keep C. calyptratus and F. pardalis in larger terrariums. Are these large terrariums as cost effective as large screen enclosures? No, but your statements were not about cost effectiveness, they were about a supposed lack of benefit of glass terrariums to keep chameleons in, which simply is not true.

My point in the last post is that the glass and lack of air flow seem to really make for more problems then good unless you have a couple of spare hours daily that you want to clean and make sure no mold, or water is sitting in your enclosure.

You might want to read the first post of this thread and the airflow issue is discussed there. Also, I spend considerably less time on maintenance for my glass terrariums that I ever did on my screen enclosures. You seem to be assuming that different strategies are automatically more difficult strategies, which they aren't. There are considerations you have to make and things that need to be monitored in glass terrariums that you do not need to do in screen enclosures, but the opposite is also true.

The drainage sucks, it would be hard to customize it i would imagine unless you build your own glass enclosure. So the water would sit at the bottom and just let bacteria grow.

Only if you are doing it wrong. If you do your husbandry in screen enclosures wrong too, you'll have problems. The entire point is you do not have to mist as much in glass terrariums. I misted each screen enclosure with "montane" chameleons a total of 40-60 minutes a day but for the same species, I mist for 1.5 minutes a day in glass terrariums. Guess what? I do not have drainage or bacteria issues and I don't have hydration issues with my chameleons either.

Once again, just because something is different does not mean it is more difficult. That said, if you are unable to adapt your husbandry to different requirements, you probably should stick with a veiled chameleon and not stray from what you are comfortable with, as keeping other species or using glass terrariums does demand more flexibility and an ability to respond to husbandry cues.

The stress of your chameleon possibly seeing itself could be a huge problem and lead to stress.

This is generally something cited by individuals who have never tried using glass terrariums or from people who are misinterpreting another issue in their setup. Have you ever tried glass terrariums? I've never had a reflection issue.

It doesn't give as much room as a screen cage unless you like i have said before, spend a ton of money on a huge custom enclosure,could lead to possible obesity because lack of exercise and movement.Unless you have a bunch of free ranging setups it just makes no sense.

They now come in up to 36"x18"x36" enclosures standard without paying for a custom enclosure. That is more than enough space for most species, even most adult veileds and panthers. As for your obesity issue claim, now you're just making stuff up. I've never seen a single case of obesity caused by keeping a chameleon in too small of a glass terrarium.

The bottom is harder to cover up effectively, unlike Reptibreeze, DIY cages, and some other name brands that give you a plate to fit in the bottom for easy cleaning and easier drainage. Unlike if you had the glass terrarium it would be hard to keep something in the bottom like paper towel without having to clean it everyday considering you really dont want a substrate unless it is a pygmie chameleon.

Again, I recommend you actually read this thread as this is also discussed. Not being able to use any substrate with chameleons is a logical fallacy used to simplify things for unexperienced individuals who don't understand that fine organic soil without additives is not the same thing as fibrous or chunky substrates. Believe it or not, chameleons encounter substrate in the wild and larger chameleons are no more prone to impaction than pygmy chameleons. If you use the correct substrate, the chances of a problem are extremely low and there are numerous benefits, including the ability to seed your enclosure with natural cleanup crews, healthier plants, higher humidity, less maintenance, etc.

And by no means was I lumping the 200 chameleon species, my thing is just about everyone owns about the 10 most popular species(including panther locales) so it doesnt make sense to include the huge variety of chameleons that most of the average hobbyists dont own. That is just my thoughts on it so that you could understand me better chris. Thank you for the article i did enjoy it a lot. Hope to hear back from you!

Like I said, you can not use glass terrariums exactly like you would a screen enclosure. If you can't understand that you have to modify aspects of your husbandry to reflect fundamental differences in the design of the enclosure, you shouldn't try it. Large screen enclosures are much less expensive than comparably sized terrariums, but that does not make them better enclosures, however. Even panther and veiled chameleons can be kept in these terrariums quite effectively.

Chris

 

[Olimpia]

...

Again, I recommend you actually read this thread as this is also discussed. Not being able to use any substrate with chameleons is a logical fallacy used to simplify things for unexperienced individuals who don't understand that fine organic soil without additives is not the same thing as fibrous or chunky substrates. Believe it or not, chameleons encounter substrate in the wild and larger chameleons are no more prone to impaction than pygmy chameleons. If you use the correct substrate, the chances of a problem are extremely low and there are numerous benefits, including the ability to seed your enclosure with natural cleanup crews, healthier plants, higher humidity, less maintenance, etc.

...

Chris

I've always thought so. Especially because we then tell people to keep a 12" container of soil or sand in the enclosure of females at all times, but turn around say that the soil in the plant pots needs to be covered in rocks. It's a leap of logic I've never understood. I don't use a substrate in my screen cages for obvious containment issues but I do and have always used substrate in other tanks for other lizards, complete with plants and worms. Something fine like soil really poses very little risk, especially to a well hydrated animal.

What's more, I would argue that paper towels are about the worst thing you could use. Paper towels aren't like toilet paper sheets, they aren't designed to dissolve and break apart when wet. I have seen my dog eat paper towels blotted with bacon fat and seen them pass completely intact. Since it has so much drag and durability, if your chameleon were to bite off a piece it stands a much better chance of becoming stuck than a mouthful of soil.

 

[Chris Anderson]

I've always thought so. Especially because we then tell people to keep a 12" container of soil or sand in the enclosure of females at all times, but turn around say that the soil in the plant pots needs to be covered in rocks. It's a leap of logic I've never understood. I don't use a substrate in my screen cages for obvious containment issues but I do and have always used substrate in other tanks for other lizards, complete with plants and worms. Something fine like soil really poses very little risk, especially to a well hydrated animal.

What's more, I would argue that paper towels are about the worst thing you could use. Paper towels aren't like toilet paper sheets, they aren't designed to dissolve and break apart when wet. I have seen my dog eat paper towels blotted with bacon fat and seen them pass completely intact. Since it has so much drag and durability, if your chameleon were to bite off a piece it stands a much better chance of becoming stuck than a mouthful of soil.

Agreed. For a long time I was guilty of propagating that fallacy (just like the no glass terrariums one), until I actually thought about it (as opposed to regurgitating what everyone else says) and then tried it.

Chris

 

[ISA my Veiled]

In your previous post you stated that "to be honest there seems to be a lot more disadvantages of glass terrariums versus a screen one. And it seems to have less benefits than a screen cage from what I have learned so far in my chameleon experience." This is not directed at the Exo Terra terrariums specifically, but glass terrariums in general and I'm telling you that your statement is incorrect because you can not characterize all chameleons the same way. Regarding your claim that you would not keep C. parsonii in a glass terrarium, I also disagree. You can custom build or purchase large custom built terrariums which would be completely appropriate to house C. parsonii in (there are photos in this thread of adult C. parsonii in glass terrariums in fact). You can also keep C. calyptratus and F. pardalis in larger terrariums. Are these large terrariums as cost effective as large screen enclosures? No, but your statements were not about cost effectiveness, they were about a supposed lack of benefit of glass terrariums to keep chameleons in, which simply is not true.



You might want to read the first post of this thread and the airflow issue is discussed there. Also, I spend considerably less time on maintenance for my glass terrariums that I ever did on my screen enclosures. You seem to be assuming that different strategies are automatically more difficult strategies, which they aren't. There are considerations you have to make and things that need to be monitored in glass terrariums that you do not need to do in screen enclosures, but the opposite is also true.



Only if you are doing it wrong. If you do your husbandry in screen enclosures wrong too, you'll have problems. The entire point is you do not have to mist as much in glass terrariums. I misted each screen enclosure with "montane" chameleons a total of 40-60 minutes a day but for the same species, I mist for 1.5 minutes a day in glass terrariums. Guess what? I do not have drainage or bacteria issues and I don't have hydration issues with my chameleons either.


Once again, just because something is different does not mean it is more difficult. That said, if you are unable to adapt your husbandry to different requirements, you probably should stick with a veiled chameleon and not stray from what you are comfortable with, as keeping other species or using glass terrariums does demand more flexibility and an ability to respond to husbandry cues.


This is generally something cited by individuals who have never tried using glass terrariums or from people who are misinterpreting another issue in their setup. Have you ever tried glass terrariums? I've never had a reflection issue.

Just something that is commonly said by senior members in past posts that I have seen and heard not good things about.

They now come in up to 36"x18"x36" enclosures standard without paying for a custom enclosure. That is more than enough space for most species, even most adult veileds and panthers. As for your obesity issue claim, now you're just making stuff up. I've never seen a single case of obesity caused by keeping a chameleon in too small of a glass terrarium.



Again, I recommend you actually read this thread as this is also discussed. Not being able to use any substrate with chameleons is a logical fallacy used to simplify things for unexperienced individuals who don't understand that fine organic soil without additives is not the same thing as fibrous or chunky substrates. Believe it or not, chameleons encounter substrate in the wild and larger chameleons are no more prone to impaction than pygmy chameleons. If you use the correct substrate, the chances of a problem are extremely low and there are numerous benefits, including the ability to seed your enclosure with natural cleanup crews, healthier plants, higher humidity, less maintenance, etc



Like I said, you can not use glass terrariums exactly like you would a screen enclosure. If you can't understand that you have to modify aspects of your husbandry to reflect fundamental differences in the design of the enclosure, you shouldn't try it. Large screen enclosures are much less expensive than comparably sized terrariums, but that does not make them better enclosures, however. Even panther and veiled chameleons can be kept in these terrariums quite effectively.


Chris

eah I wasn't directly it clearly at Exo-Terra by any means, I use a few of their terrariums for some of my other animals. But what I was saying about the parsonii, is (I am dabbing a bit into person opinion again , sorry.) Why would you keep a larger species of Chameleon in a cage that isn't large enough. You state that a 36x18x36 is large enough but it seems to be more of a minimum than a comfortable size. Not saying you are wrong, I completely respect your research because of my inexperience and really hope to learn from it. I am getting more information through this argument than I could asking questions. Please don't think I am trying to prove you wrong, by all means take it as a complement that I am requesting you to explain this even better than your post did.

Yeah I get the airflow but it all depends on brand of the enclosure you purchase, I mean obviously you won't buy a Chameleon enclosure from a plain jane company that does not have specific air flow things built into it like Exo-Terra does. And just judging by my experiences with Bearded Dragons and other reptiles, it is a little more difficult to clean than my screen enclosure is, and the screen enclosure is extremely efficient compared to my terrariums. But it is not a fair comparison on my part considering I have a different reptile in it.

I can understand this one, but I mean like you said YOU do not have any problems with drainage because of the effectiveness of the humidity in your enclosures. But some inexperienced keepers may not know the rights and wrongs with the glass terrarium. I find a lot of people on this forum specifically pointing out to people that screen enclosures are the way to go. I mean after the points you made I can see some people turning the other way and second guessing the glass terrariums, you made some great points in my opinion that all make sense and are legitimate.

Idk if you were pointing this directly at me lol, I guess I should not make as many assumptions, but it is an educated guess I suppose. I am very good with my Chameleon thus far, sure I have questions but I am learning from people like you as well as myself.

Just something that is commonly said by senior members in past posts that I have seen and heard not good things about.


Yeah I have seen them for myself. But like I said before it almost seems extremely small for an animal that goes around all day. I mean obviously everyones enclosures unless you a whole lot of land to make a free range is not going to compare to the wild, but that is not what we are discussing, I mean for captivity that really seems small. I mean I feel like it is almost like putting a Bearded Dragon in a 10 gallon tank when it is full grown. Not much space to explore and kinda cramped especially if you have a Male Veiled or Panther. Just my thought on it.

Lol I read it thank you, I get the whole substrate thing, sure some people do not understand it, but sometimes substrate can still be an issue. I don't really think we can relate wild chameleons versus captive. The nature part of it though is brilliant I am sure many people shy away from it not being so informed as you are.



Of course not, they are completely different. And yes but most people on here do not have the budget for a $800.00 terrarium, sometimes a screen enclosure makes more sense in your area than a glass terrarium would.

 

[Alexl]

Believe it or not, chameleons encounter substrate in the wild and larger chameleons are no more prone to impaction than pygmy chameleons. If you use the correct substrate, the chances of a problem are extremely low and there are numerous benefits, including the ability to seed your enclosure with natural cleanup crews, healthier plants, higher humidity, less maintenance, etc.

That's exactly why all long year breeders I know do definitely advice to use forest soil - or to simplify natural ground - inside lizard cages over here. I never had problems in any of my cages using forest soil with lots of microorganisms inside, too. Same with most of chameleon keepers I know and their animals.

You need to imitate nature, that's all. A "sterile" soil baked in oven or toilet paper with feces on it will create a nice environment for pathogenic bacteria to grow, because there are no nonpathogenic ones to take their place - this may lead to real health issues in chameleons. But you won't have any problems with natural soil from forest with all those earthworms, little bugs, bacteria... inside. It's even nothing being able to cause impactions (compared to e.g. sand, bark, little stones which I've seen often inside lizard's stomaches on the operating table), but has lots of advantages for the cage inhabitant: Better humidity, you don't need to change anything for a gravid female, feces forgotten to take out isn't a problem at all (those little helpers inside the soil will destroy it completely), the (real!) plants grow better than in pots... just to name some.

I've been wondering about this "cover the soil with large rocks"-thing since being here... I never heard of such an idea from chameleon keepers before.

 

[pssh]

ISA, I used to think similarly before Chris set me straight. As for the 36x18x36 cages, that would be plenty of room for a male veiled or panther. Gary Ferguson did a study and found that cages as small as something like 12x12x18 were satisfactory for males. Bigger is better, but smaller isn't always an issue. An adult parsons might require something larger than a 36x18x36, but you can have a large glass cage made for them. It might cost quite a bit, but it is not impossible.

 

[ISA my Veiled]

ISA, I used to think similarly before Chris set me straight. As for the 36x18x36 cages, that would be plenty of room for a male veiled or panther. Gary Ferguson did a study and found that cages as small as something like 12x12x18 were satisfactory for males. Bigger is better, but smaller isn't always an issue. An adult parsons might require something larger than a 36x18x36, but you can have a large glass cage made for them. It might cost quite a bit, but it is not impossible.

Yeah and I mean this was all just to gain more knowledge on the issue. I questioned him to understand better and to find out more things. I wasnt arguing his points. But i see clearly now what he was explaining by far compared to two days ago when I really didnt know to much. I am learning as well as a ton of people on here and I am trying to gain as much knowledge as I can because I love my Chameleon and I wish to have a few more and be able to do something with my education that centers around animals.

 

[studio2eight]

What about injury to the tongue?

I was told by a breeder that if they go after a cricket on the glass, and by chance miss, that it can bruise their tongue. If the injury is bad enough, they will stop eating.

Anyone heard of this and how does it fit into the post of being able to use the glass terrariums for our chameleons?

BTW - I have a large one for sale in West Palm Beach if anyone is interested.

 

[Alexl]

I was told by a breeder that if they go after a cricket on the glass, and by chance miss, that it can bruise their tongue.

Crickets can't walk on glass... so the chance to hit the glass instead of a cricket is really low for a chameleon . The most tongue injuries in chameleons I've seen til now happened by using tweezers to feed the animal. The chameleon hit the tweezers and injured muscle filaments. Some couldn't shoot for a while. Same can happen with anything they hit by accident, e.g. a branch the tongue gets stuck at.

 

[Chameleopatrick]

Chris, thanks for educating many of the members here. You definitely have an informative approach that may benefit these members who make constant assumptions with out really knowing anything about variables in husbandry( and probably chameleons in general).

I've invested a small fortune in my 36x18x36 enclosures and they work better than any set up I've found for indoor care.

I used to use screen because when I started with chameleons in 1992, that's what was available. Now there is something better, it's called Exo terra.
Great visibility,humidity,temperature retention all in a very aesthetically pleasing package.

By the way, lots of Perreti babies coming..... : )

Thanks for the quality info. brother!