Furcifer willsii

happy14 said:
I think, I should take the pictures out, because gives not so much discussions.:mad:
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I don't think you should. Just because one person says something negative doesn't mean you need to take your picture(s) down. So he doesn't like it...who cares?
 
Yes, I know, I shouldn´t take the pictures out, but any guys are don´t like this. I would post more from my rare species:(
 
happy14 said:
Yes, I know, I shouldn´t take the pictures out, but any guys are don´t like this. I would post more from my rare species:(
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As long as you aren't posting pictures of species that are illegal, or were obtained illegally, in your country, then post them....
 
Happy I love your chams!

I think alot of this is built up around jealousy!

Trace if I told you I was going to send you some pumilum or other bradypodions would you pass up the oppurtunity?
Or even if happy was going to send some of his chams to you in the US? Im sure you would be more than happy to take them! Please dont try tell me no you would rather see them in the wild, when most of all people probably including your self would rather see the chameleon in an enclosure in your house.
 
If you actually knew how long the people you are talking about have been working with chameleons and how many species they have experience with, you'd know how ridiculous that argument is.
 
chameleonneeds said:
Happy I love your chams!

I think alot of this is built up around jealousy!

Trace if I told you I was going to send you some pumilum or other bradypodions would you pass up the oppurtunity?
Or even if happy was going to send some of his chams to you in the US? Im sure you would be more than happy to take them! Please dont try tell me no you would rather see them in the wild, when most of all people probably including your self would rather see the chameleon in an enclosure in your house.
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Jealousy? You obviously don't know me.

I would not take your Bradypodion as I know they are illegal to export out of SA. I would also not take any of his minor (my favourite species) nor his willsii or nasutum or anything else. I think a lot of you would be quite surprised as to what has been offered to me over the years and I've turned it all down because I can not support, even indirectly, the illegal trade of animals and I will remain outspoken about it.

For the record I have not purchased any chameleons - wild caught, farm raised or even captive bred in almost 5 years because of my feelings towards this issue.

Cheers,
Trace

P.S. Thanks Kent (again)

P.P.S. Why does everyone assume I'm a male?
 
I dont like the dark side to the reptile trade either. But it doesnt keep me from enjoying my animals and knowing that i do everything i can to make their lives healthy. If you dont like to keep chams in enclosures or in captivity it seems kind of strange you would be hanging out on a cham keepers forum. jmo
 
Texas Panther Man said:
I dont like the dark side to the reptile trade either. But it doesnt keep me from enjoying my animals and knowing that i do everything i can to make their lives healthy. If you dont like to keep chams in enclosures or in captivity it seems kind of strange you would be hanging out on a cham keepers forum. jmo
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Agree with you on that one.

And trace, you not buying any chameleons captive bred or whatever, illegal or legal is not solving the problem, I assume you would tell me you know that?
Ja these fights get nowhere and all it does is drive people away from getting to see what they probably would never, or people are to scared to show their chams. Thanks Trace
 
My complete species have are papers and are regestrated.
Calumma nasuta, Furcifer Moll etc. are all BRED!!!
I have not illegal animals!
That´s make me very sick... .:mad:
 
Kent67 said:
If you actually knew how long the people you are talking about have been working with chameleons and how many species they have experience with, you'd know how ridiculous that argument is.
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I know you guys also have alot of experience with different species but I dont care, good for you, you supported the huge exportations of those animals back when it was "legal". You got alot of what you wanted so you are not bothered that there are now bans on exporting.
 
So, if I came to South Africa, stuffed my luggage full of Bradypodion, snuck them back to the US, and then sold "legal" captive borns you'd have no problem with that?

You are also wrong about how I feel in regards to the suspension. If you would go back and look at any previous threads, I have said that I would like to see small, scientifically established quotas, allowed of many of these species. While some should not be in the trade, there are a number of currently suspended Malagasy chameleon species that I believe could be safely exported again. Legally.

Happy14: Perhaps the language differences are a problem but I think we can all assume that your animals were hatched in Germany, as you've said. If that makes them "legal" in your country that is fine. However, the experienced people here know that the bloodlines they came from have not existed in Europe since before the suspension 15 years ago. We don't think you did anything illegal. But, we are trying to get the point across that supporting the people who actually DO the illegal things, by purchasing their offspring, etc. is still not in the best interest of the herp community.
 
GoFast said:
Once again, people are mixing up legalities with morals which is a dangerous proposition.

Do you really think that the animals are the true focus of these laws? Vegas Chad(I think) either had to or almost had to ship a bunch of animals back to Madagascar because of some silly paper work slip up. That is a trip that had a good chance of killing them. So again, how does that have the animals best interest at heart?
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Silly paper work:mad: Thats ignorant. Sad for the animals, yes but that silly paper work is what is trying to save these animals populations from becoming even more sparse than they already are. If your going to import/export animals the paperwork must be legit, plain and simple.
 
Kent67 said:
So, if I came to South Africa, stuffed my luggage full of Bradypodion, snuck them back to the US, and then sold "legal" captive borns you'd have no problem with that?

You are also wrong about how I feel in regards to the suspension. If you would go back and look at any previous threads, I have said that I would like to see small, scientifically established quotas, allowed of many of these species. While some should not be in the trade, there are a number of currently suspended Malagasy chameleon species that I believe could be safely exported again. Legally.

Happy14: Perhaps the language differences are a problem but I think we can all assume that your animals were hatched in Germany, as you've said. If that makes them "legal" in your country that is fine. However, the experienced people here know that the bloodlines they came from have not existed in Europe since before the suspension 15 years ago. We don't think you did anything illegal. But, we are trying to get the point across that supporting the people who actually DO the illegal things, by purchasing their offspring, etc. is still not in the best interest of the herp community.
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Unfortunetly Kent its already happend except somehow they were exported illegaly into the U.S, dont know if they were in anyones pockets.
And yes I would have a problem with it, I didnt say that I wouldnt did I?
 
GoFast said:
I don't think you should. Just because one person says something negative doesn't mean you need to take your picture(s) down. So he doesn't like it...who cares?
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Just so you guys will quit referring to "he" Trace if a female.
 
chameleonneeds said:
Unfortunetly Kent its already happend except somehow they were exported illegaly into the U.S, dont know if they were in anyones pockets.
And yes I would have a problem with it, I didnt say that I wouldnt did I?
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So, when it happens with Madagascar animals it is ok, and we are just jealous, but when it happens with S.A animals you have a problem with it. Got it. I just needed clarification.
 
Trace said:
Jealousy? You obviously don't know me.

I would not take your Bradypodion as I know they are illegal to export out of SA. I would also not take any of his minor (my favourite species) nor his willsii or nasutum or anything else. I think a lot of you would be quite surprised as to what has been offered to me over the years and I've turned it all down because I can not support, even indirectly, the illegal trade of animals and I will remain outspoken about it.

For the record I have not purchased any chameleons - wild caught, farm raised or even captive bred in almost 5 years because of my feelings towards this issue.

Cheers,
Trace


Trace I respect what you have said. I did not meat to stir something up. I just honestly wanted to know why you felt that way. I know sometimes I play or offer to play outside the rules but you are correct, and you would know, they were not legal to be sold. I understand how you see it & how you feel. That was really all I wanted to know. Thanks

Also I had already corrected that you are female before I was you last post.
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@GoFast: It's the same with parsonii... everybody wants them, just a few persons have them and those animals are all minimum F3 CB ones.
 
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