Furcifer willsii

[Kent67]

Also, I am pretty positive that Chris has a willsii or had one as of 2002. http://forum.kingsnake.com/chameleon/messages/7764.html

He is pretty respected and rightfully so...are you all going to chastise him for having one now?

F. willsi can be very long-lived. I have a personal friend who purchased an imported adult prior to the suspension in 1995 and she had him up until at least 2002 or later. To answer the question though, if Chris knowingly purchased smuggled animals and told me about it, yes, I absolutely would give him a hard time about it. And I think he would expect me to.

Edit: Also, if anyone can find it, there was a thread here maybe 2008 with pictures and pricelists of straight-up, not hiding the fact, wild-caught Malagasy chameleons at Hamm.

 

[GoFast]

F. willsi can be very long-lived. I have a personal friend who purchased an imported adult prior to the suspension in 1995 and she had him up until at least 2002 or later. To answer the question though, if Chris knowingly purchased smuggled animals and told me about it, yes, I absolutely would give him a hard time about it. And I think he would expect me to.

Edit: Also, if anyone can find it, there was a thread here maybe 2008 with pictures and pricelists of straight-up, not hiding the fact, wild-caught Malagasy chameleons at Hamm.

Exactly! So would I. However, we assume that Chris has them legally and could probably also assume that he isn't the *only* one, right?

So, with that in mind, how is it fair to assume that happy14 doesn't have a CB that came from lineage of a legally WC willsii? Just because this is a new forum member, he was automatically criticized and it just isn't fair at all.

 

[chameleonneeds]

So, when it happens with Madagascar animals it is ok, and we are just jealous, but when it happens with S.A animals you have a problem with it. Got it. I just needed clarification.

My word where do you get the impression that I am implying that?! You are totaly missing the point with what I was trying to make, but I give up

 

[happy14]

Chameleoneeds, you are a good human
But I don´t post more pictures. It´s gives to much discussions.

 

[chameleonneeds]

Thanks Phillip lol. Same to you, good luck with your species anyway, maybe one day you will be able to post pics again wihtout being shotdown.

 

[happy14]

I hope it, Chameleonneeds... .

 

[Chris Anderson]

GoFast,

In 2002, while living in the Czech Republic, I came across a pair of both Furcifer minor and Furcifer willsii. Neither pair appeared to show obvious signs of being recently WC and both appeared healthy. I was not able to determine the origin of their bloodlines with regard to when the lineages left Madagascar and I did purchase them. While I fully acknowledge that the extremely limited amount of breeding success with either species makes the likelihood of the completely legal origin of their bloodlines low, a 7 year period from when their legal exportation stopped is very different from a 15 year period amidst this marginal breeding record.

I think part of the issue with the differing opinions on this subject is the distinction between legal on paper and of true legal origin. To be of true legal origin, each of these animals should be able to honestly trace their entire ancestry back to animals that were legally exported from Madagascar before their ban on export in 1995. The truth of the matter is that few if any of these animals can honestly do so. The way the CITES system works has provided an opportunity for people to fraudulently claim animals and their offspring as of legal origin simply by showing legal documents for an animal that may have already deceased or that may not truly be related to the offspring being sold. Because it is very difficult to prove these individuals wrong, these animals they are representing as being covered by these legal documents are now legal on paper because the authorities can not prove otherwise.

The concern Kent and Trace are expressing is that this practice is legally and morally wrong, whether or not the animals become legal on paper because the authorities can not prove it. Unfortunately the cause of the export ban may not be a good one in all cases and there are surely breeders who have genuinely bred some species legally. As a result, logic may tell us that the ban is ridiculous and that it is not fair to group animals from unscrupulous individuals with those of respectable individuals but what absolutely needs to be made clear is that by choosing to own any of these species in question, it is impossible at this point to completely separate yourself from these activities.

Some choose to outright boycott working with these species to completely avoid supporting these activities on any level and I respect their will and the strength it takes them to do that. I do and have worked with a number of species which fall into the category of species where these practices likely occur. I try to know where my animals are coming from to the best of my ability and at the very least make sure these animals entered the US legally as under no circumstances would I knowingly directly support such behavior. There is no question that the system needs to be strengthened and until it is, many species will experience these practices to varying degrees and even completely legal animals will be tainted by the notion that some are not.

Chris

 

[franklin]

OT.
this year,an Italian breeder,have hatch some f.petteri,nice specie similar at f.willsii.
here a pics of baby and their parents

http://www.sanguefreddo.net/album.php?albumid=30

 

[happy14]

Oh, yes!
This are Furcifer petteri. I have pics from petteri too!