Garage turned as new home for veiled cham

[aramis32]

Hi Cham lovers,

I am looking to build an extra large vivarium for my veiled cham. Turning a garage into a self contained ecosystem for one cham and locuts/crickets. any suggestions of how to do this?

Would the feeder insects overwhelm the cham, stress and eat everything? what about having other insects preying on locusts and crickets too?

Dimensions are: 5m wide, 1.25 m deep and 3.1m high.

Thanks

 

[kinyonga]

Not sure what you're asking about the insects.
We need photos of the space to help you.

 

[aramis32]

Not sure what you're asking about the insects.
We need photos of the space to help you.

The space is not ready as it is being built. It is garage.

Question on the feeder insects is if anyone thinks possible to have a breeding colony of feeders in a terrarium. As the space is large would it be possible to have feeders breed naturally and be eaten by the cham? If so what should i consider (eg how many trees needed to ensure the insects wouldn’t eat all the leaves..) any tips are welcome

 

[Beman]

I think your Veiled is going to binge eat as many of the feeders it can find. Your better off keeping them separately. You do not want an obese Veiled. Shortens lifespan and causes other issues with organs. Not to mention he would be eating feeders that have not been properly supplemented. We supplement all feeders before being fed to balance the calcium to phosphorus ratio of our feeders. If he is just picking them off then your not powdering them first. Will make phosphorus levels much higher which in turn leads to health issues.

 

[CasqueAbove]

You problem with this is
1) how will you provide UVB to cover the area ?
2) In a large open area like that the bugs will hide, they are nocturnal. Cham won't see them.
3) How will you supplement.
4) can you provide enough lights for plant growth.

A better way is to just do one wall and go 36" deep. This is a manageable space. You could still go bioactive, like nature with the roaches and crickets as CuC and snack when she finds them. You would want to cup feed so you can make sure they are getting enough and the supplements.

 

[kinyonga]

In addition to what @Beman has said....the insects need a food supply too. Why not raise the insects in a separate space, feed them well and take a few at a time and place them in a feeder in the chameleon's space?

 

[aramis32]

In addition to what @Beman has said....the insects need a food supply too. Why not raise the insects in a separate space, feed them well and take a few at a time and place them in a feeder in the chameleon's space?

I was thinking that as locusts eat ficus i could have enough ficus trees and praying manthises to keep the population of feeders under check

 

[kinyonga]

How are you going to know how much your chameleons are eating?

 

[PoseidonTheChameleon]

I think the idea sounds nice but it wouldnt really work the way you want it to. Like said above, there isnt a uvb fixture that will cover an entire garage. As for the bugs, the cham would end up obese with so many bugs around. I suggest you build an enclosure. You could make it as big as you want, but I think an entire garage is just too big for a permanent enclosure.

 

[aramis32]

How are you going to know how much your chameleons are eating?

By observing them hunting and seeing if they are skiiny?
Is it possible

 

[PoseidonTheChameleon]

By observing them hunting and seeing if they are skiiny?
Is it possible

You cant observe them everyday all day. I'm sorry, I know this sounded really cool to you but I dont think that's the best decision.

 

[aramis32]

I think the idea sounds nice but it wouldnt really work the way you want it to. Like said above, there isnt a uvb fixture that will cover an entire garage. As for the bugs, the cham would end up obese with so many bugs around. I suggest you build an enclosure. You could make it as big as you want, but I think an entire garage is just too big for a permanent enclosure.

I don’t think it is too big, the bigger the better for them. I would be a walkin enclosure with a corridor in the middle and glass in the sides. It wouldn’t cover the entire enclosure but more in a U shape. The width of the U is 1.25m and lenth is 5m for each leg and 3.75m for the back part. As per UVB they would have to cover the entire terrarium of course.

 

[PoseidonTheChameleon]

I don’t think it is too big, the bigger the better for them. I would be a walkin enclosure with a corridor in the middle and glass in the sides. It wouldn’t cover the entire enclosure but more in a U shape. The width of the U is 1.25m and lenth is 5m for each leg and 3.75m for the back part. As per UVB they would have to cover the entire terrarium of course.

Do you have like a picture or sketch of this? I'm trying to understand what your picturing. Are you using the entire garage? Because there isnt a uvb bulb that will cover that so I'm kind of confused

 

[CasqueAbove]

I was thinking that as locusts eat ficus i could have enough ficus trees and praying manthises to keep the population of feeders under check

I do understand the excitement on this. I think of these things all the time. I have kept many planted aquariums and a reef tank. Reefs are fully balanced systems and don't even need to be fed very much. Once you get into this you realize the complexities of life and plant and animal relationships. Everybody eats somebody else. You have to know who eats who, who tolerates who. When you deal with general omnivores, like locust and crickets, this become very difficult as they will eat everything when the population grows. You also really have to balance natural behavior. Chameleons in the wild do not eat many ground dwelling insects, particularly ones that burrow. One of two things can happen. Cham finds the group and devours them all. Or more likely never sees them. You would need to have a source of flying insects, like a bee hive that opens partly to the garage. Though this is unlikely to work as the bees would quickly learn.
Creating a natural food cycle is very difficult for any thing much larger than a few inches.

What you want to do here is evaluate what it is you are really looking for. It is not necessary or reasonable to expect this kind of self feeding. But if you take that out of the equation and say Ok so I will feed few time a week, you can and will still have some flies buzzing around to hunt.
For the rest I would have to ask for a budget and time budget. With a solometer and a number of uvb fixtures, some T5 some the MV bulbs for heat and UVB carful placement of branches you could probably get it right. You will also need plant lights. Assuming you don't want a bunch more hanging lights a 500 to 1000watt High Pressure Sodium bulb and fixture can pernitrate that deep. LED will not reach past 36 inches effectively for growth. You will probably also need to protect your floor in some way. If you do all this it is possible.
A better solution is to use a series of large planter boxes. Then you can light those areas appropriately and connect with branches to travel in between.

 

[salty dog]

I'd feed them out of a cup

 

[CasqueAbove]

I'd feed them out of a cup

Now see that would be cool. Seeing you cham come climbing from across the room.

 

[aramis32]

Do you have like a picture or sketch of this? I'm trying to understand what your picturing. Are you using the entire garage? Because there isnt a uvb bulb that will cover that so I'm kind of confused

so this is the room. we want to restore it this summer and insulate it. The dimensions are 7meter long, 3.75 meters wide and 3.1 meters high.

I was thinking on having two corridors of enclosures divided by a 1.25meter corridor down the middle. This would create two corridors of 7mx1.25mx3m. I would then further divide each corridor into 7 enclosure to have in total 14 chams in the garage.

We are still in the brainstorming phase.... Several UVBs will have to be placed,..

 

[aramis32]

I do understand the excitement on this. I think of these things all the time. I have kept many planted aquariums and a reef tank. Reefs are fully balanced systems and don't even need to be fed very much. Once you get into this you realize the complexities of life and plant and animal relationships. Everybody eats somebody else. You have to know who eats who, who tolerates who. When you deal with general omnivores, like locust and crickets, this become very difficult as they will eat everything when the population grows. You also really have to balance natural behavior. Chameleons in the wild do not eat many ground dwelling insects, particularly ones that burrow. One of two things can happen. Cham finds the group and devours them all. Or more likely never sees them. You would need to have a source of flying insects, like a bee hive that opens partly to the garage. Though this is unlikely to work as the bees would quickly learn.
Creating a natural food cycle is very difficult for any thing much larger than a few inches.

What you want to do here is evaluate what it is you are really looking for. It is not necessary or reasonable to expect this kind of self feeding. But if you take that out of the equation and say Ok so I will feed few time a week, you can and will still have some flies buzzing around to hunt.
For the rest I would have to ask for a budget and time budget. With a solometer and a number of uvb fixtures, some T5 some the MV bulbs for heat and UVB carful placement of branches you could probably get it right. You will also need plant lights. Assuming you don't want a bunch more hanging lights a 500 to 1000watt High Pressure Sodium bulb and fixture can pernitrate that deep. LED will not reach past 36 inches effectively for growth. You will probably also need to protect your floor in some way. If you do all this it is possible.
A better solution is to use a series of large planter boxes. Then you can light those areas appropriately and connect with branches to travel in between.

yes thank you for the message. i agree, it is very exiting and needs a lot of planning if at all possible.

I also understand that the most difficult part is the feeding/dusting. Other than that it is just a massive enclosure setup and can be done. What kind of flying insects could i feed them?

Budget wise i would hope to keep it under 10k and time is very flexible, i would prefer to have it done in the next 8 months as we should have some babies hatching then and would like to keep as many as possible.

Understanding the feed cycle is the key to making this possible. Currently we are thinking on having a separate room (there are two smaller rooms not being used next to the garage) to have some feeders multiplication and being culled somehow when they get out of control... as having the feeders freely multiplying in the enclosure seems difficult as it is too small compared to the natural ecosystem.

any ideas would be amazing.

 

[CasqueAbove]

yes thank you for the message. i agree, it is very exiting and needs a lot of planning if at all possible.

I also understand that the most difficult part is the feeding/dusting. Other than that it is just a massive enclosure setup and can be done. What kind of flying insects could i feed them?

Budget wise i would hope to keep it under 10k and time is very flexible, i would prefer to have it done in the next 8 months as we should have some babies hatching then and would like to keep as many as possible.

Understanding the feed cycle is the key to making this possible. Currently we are thinking on having a separate room (there are two smaller rooms not being used next to the garage) to have some feeders multiplication and being culled somehow when they get out of control... as having the feeders freely multiplying in the enclosure seems difficult as it is too small compared to the natural ecosystem.

any ideas would be amazing.

If I was going that full scale I would look into a bee hive. They have one that go inside the house, they are expensive, but you could do it cheaper once yoy know what it needs it is not too hard. One side opens too enclosure, the other would be Black Soldier Flies. They can be easily bought as larva and grown out. That and hva some flowering plants with a window that can be opened to allow bugs in. Yo would need to do weekly weigh ins to make sure he was catching enough food.

 

[aramis32]

If I was going that full scale I would look into a bee hive. They have one that go inside the house, they are expensive, but you could do it cheaper once yoy know what it needs it is not too hard. One side opens too enclosure, the other would be Black Soldier Flies. They can be easily bought as larva and grown out. That and hva some flowering plants with a window that can be opened to allow bugs in. Yo would need to do weekly weigh ins to make sure he was catching enough food.

that's interesting. you mean bee hive for black soldier flies? not actual bees right?

when you say have a window open, you don't mean to the outside world? i am worried with contamination from outside in the flies.. eg: there are rice paddies around and there is fertiliser, pesticides spread in the fields, so maybe it wouldn't be a great idea to gut load the flies with outside insects/flowers... but i might be wrong