George had surgery

Ah, I was slightly suspicious of this youtube clip, particularly of the shots of this iguana hanging out with a toddler... just seemed like an awful lot of weaponary & very little defense on the baby's part!

Basically, I'm a first year zoologist. I wanted to be a vet but it's extremely competitive in the UK & my grades just didn't cut it- then if you do succeed the chances of finding a practice are small. I have my first year exams in october (later than others due to circumstances). I mostly want to learn to intepret and understand that sort of analysis. It's one step closer to getting involved in some useful research & expanding my understanding of cellular biology.
 
ferretinmyshoes said:
Here is a video where you can hear George's heart beating under anesthesia! That wooshing noise is each beat of his heart - the first lower woosh is the atriums contracting, and the second louder woosh is the ventricle (reptiles only have 3 chambers to their heart instead of 4 like mammals!), and then repeat. Reptiles have slow heartbeats compared to mammals. That's how I monitored how he was doing under surgery. :)

Click to expand...


Poor George!! ;-( Feel better soon little buddy!
 
So I got the pathology report back today:

MICROSCOPIC INTERPRETATION
Skin: Focal, nodular, endophytic epidermal hyperplasia, moderate to
severe hyperkeratosis with mild heterophilic dermatitis

COMMENTS
These were very interesting lesions and of uncertain cause. Based on
routinely stained sections I could not identify definitive fungal
organisms. Special stains for fungal organisms have been requested
and an addendum will follow with results of those stains (usually
within 24 to 48 hours).

This lesion is primarily a hyperplastic and hyperkeratotic lesion with
mild inflammation. In many ways the lesions somewhat resemble
endophytic or inverted papillomas seen in small animals associated
with papillomavirus. Definitive viral cytopathic effect or
intranuclear viral inclusions were not seen. Depending on the results
of the special stains for fungus, ancillary testing may be available
to try and document a potential papillomaviral infection in this
veiled chameleon.
Click to expand...

So in essence...don't really know what they are yet. :( I'm going to send them some pictures and let them try some more testing methods of the samples I sent. Maybe we'll find something and maybe we won't.
 
I am glad that it was not cancer. Hope he is doing well. Wow you have an Iguana that old!!? My roommate had one way back in the day and it lived for about 5 years and I thought that was old! I guess that was because I was comparing it to the first one that died after a few months. She did not know what she was doing with the first one and learned quickly with the second the mistakes she made with the first. Of course, this was like 30 years ago way before the internet and all the resources we have now.
 
Ferret - this is extremely interesting, and George is so lucky to have you as a Mom. I think if I had had a forum like this in high school, I would have been more interested in biology and chosen a different career path... Thanks for sharing with us, and best of luck to George!
 
very very cool, ferret! thanks for the PM; i've been so busy with the hatchlings and some other new chams that i've hardly had a chance to get on here!

a few random thought/ideas for you and others that are reading this----

-jannb, fascinating pathology, although not surprising. a tumor is a type of cancer, and happily benign in your case. there is a cancer for EVERYTHING and pretty much any "cell line" in the body that i can think of, but so that most people know, cancers are often more comon in cells that rapidly divide in the body, have a high turnover rate, or are more active cells in general. a good example would be mucosal intestinal cells on the inside of the lumen vs. the serosal cells on the outside of the intestine. the inner ones are always digesting, being scraped away by food particles, and re-grow rapidly (gotta digest!), compared to the outer layer of the intestines which is a covering and isn't nearly so active a cell. so when it comes to a chameleons skin, the color-changing cells are obviously very active (one of the reasons we love our chams so much), so a chromatophoroma which is a typically benign tumor of one of the 4 different types of cells that allow color change is not surprising. and good news generally as tumors go.

-ferret, besides the excellent work that you did and the path report, rely on your exam, history, and knowledge. some of those growths looked warty and caulifower-like from the first photos, and there's not too many other things that look like warts in non-mammalians than papillomas. i don't personally know of any species of animal that isn't susceptitble to a papillomavirus (for others reading this, warts are caused by a virus. not toads. or else my tongue would be all warty. kidding!) anyway, either you're going to get a positive back on the papilloma test, or if not it was missed, because i still say 99% papilloma. and since not all papillomaviruses are the same, some may actually disappear over time, while others may recrudesce (return in the same or different areas of the body).

-re: the Doppler. should you ever find yourself without one, i have had excellent results using a pulse oximeter rectal probe down the esophagus (of any reptile species that i've worked on) so the red light is right at the heart. picks it up perfectly as well, and it's pretty fascinating (though mabe itiitally unnerving) to watch reptile O2 levels typically stay between the 20-40% range throughout anestheisa (in dogs and cats we would start to freak if levels fell consistently below 95% or so). i know an anesthesiologist on a desert island would probably only take a Doppler as their one monitor, but it's just an FYI if you haven't done it before. just make sure the patient is out so they don't bite down on the wire and have a probe lunch free with surgery! ;)

can't wait to see the next report! now the next question is........in this day and age, can they be treated medically rather than surgically? and if they can, is it worth stressing out a grumpy veiled with oral meds? finally, most papillomaviruses tend to be pretty high on the contagion side (although they are usually species-specific), so you may need to change a bit of husbandry accordingly. with that being said, most critteters out there (including us) come into contact with papiillomaviruses constantly, and either our immune system defeats it, ot they remain sub-clinical and never emerge.


dr. o—
 
Very neat Ferret! Im still in high school and after caring for my cham for the months that I've owned him, and seeing those pictures of your work with George. I think you might of just encouraged me to take some more bio classes :D
 
Thank you, Ferret. The pictures, video and the story itself is all very interesting. That pic with the gasmask is sweet :). I'm sorry to hear George is having this problem. Will keep my fingers crossed for some more definite results.

Also, thank you Jann for sharing about poor Luie and Dr O for sharing your experiences.
 
I actually did see that thread! Those looked more horn lesions like whereas George's are fleshy. And I tried to pull one off originally and the top most layer kind of scraped off but the protruding fleshy part underneath remained rather than leaving an ulcer like that.

The first round of testing with generic primers for papilloma virus came back negative. He said he'd like to use more specific primers too and see if he gets anything, but I haven't heard back from that yet.

I removed the suture on his side incision and it has healed up beautifully. His casque incision is almost fully healed too. No other new lesions have popped up, but the remaining ones haven't changed.
 
So I finally got the final test results back. Initial testing for papillomavirus was negative, but when they used more specific primers they did get a positive for it. So it is as I suspected. It can't be treated, but it's not necessarily harmful to him. I suspect he had a flare up of growths because of the stress of the move. It is contagious so proper hygiene and strict sanitation are needed to prevent anyone else from getting infected. But interesting result and hopefully it will help improve testing in the future, knowing what was successful in finding it in George's samples.
 
Wow! What a fascinating thread! Thank you for sharing this, and bumping it up with more info. I am glad it turned out to be nothing harmful for him!
 
Not contagious to people or any of the other pets. Papillomaviruses are mostly very species-specific. There are only a select few that have been known to jump species.
 
camimom said:
well thats good. but does that mean your other chammies can still get in then?
Click to expand...

Yes, if they're ever exposed to George or any of his excretions. As long as he stays in his cage and nothing from his goes into anyone else's they should be fine though. And even if they are exposed that doesn't necessarily mean they'll get it. Some animals will clear the virus without being infected by it if they have healthy immune systems. But George gets fed last, cleaned last, handled last, etc. and his cage has multiple barriers between the next one (well, they all do) to be safe. I'm not gonna lie...I don't like having him near everyone else. If he wasn't special needs for feeding and watering I might have tried to rehome him. But that wouldn't be fair to him.
 
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