coldbloodedAL
Avid Member
This thread lost it from the very first post... Hopefully we didn't just lose another member to rediculus bashing.
While its not a good food choice, members need to lose the dramatic responses.. GET OVER IT!
Graphic Picture Warning: New cagemate
- Thread starter AmberNichole
- Start date
This thread lost it from the very first post... Hopefully we didn't just lose another member to rediculus bashing.
While its not a good food choice, members need to lose the dramatic responses.. GET OVER IT!
ISA my Veiled
New Member
moogle73
New Member
yeah, I completely see this, and agree with this... which is unfortunate.
But forums in general are the perfect "breeding ground" for a "mob" type mentality... and again that's to mean no disrespect to anyone (im not saying anyone specific in this forum was "extreme"). But I am a member of countless forums, even run a few of my own (for all sorts of things not just reptiles) and I see it time and time again. Because people are behind a computer, and across the country there is no "humanity" behind what is said some times. Likewise, some times what is said is hard to differentiate the tone of it, so somethings come off worse than intended or someone takes it differently than the poster intended, and other times people are just flat our "mean" to each other.
Then it seems once you get a few people "bashing" it seems that others just want to join on it, "beating the dead horse" as they like to say. Mainly because everyone else is why not us, without actually stopping to think about it... likewise if they were alone, and no one else had said anything, they wouldn't have said anything them self's, and or if they did, it would be to a lesser degree and not to the severity of "bashing" each other... which then drives off forum members and or makes others upset.
Like I said, I have and do run forums of my own, and I am a member of a lot of them, and I cant tell you how many times I have seen similar situations. Its really unfortunate, and it kind of reminds me of road rage too. Your behind a computer (or in your car) separated from one another, and the humanity is lost, and you seem to do more extreme things than you normally would in person.
Either way, I reached out to some people within this thread, Hopefully I get some good response's from them
drcrossfire
Avid Member
I think the Mods should just contact the OP and wipe out this whole thread so she can repost it with a proper label and we can discuss what this was actually supposed to be about... since this thread was trolled and ruined the whole line of discussion that could have been taken away from this.
there was information to be taken away from this post that is now lost in the chaos.
JMHO
there was information to be taken away from this post that is now lost in the chaos.
JMHO
There were a lot of good points brought up, more than trolling.
drcrossfire
Avid Member
djfishygillz
Avid Member
drcrossfire
Avid Member
It is typical of this to happen on a forum once in a while on a post...
I'm having terrible flashbacks to the Faly debate! Lol
Don't even go there.
drcrossfire
Avid Member
Don't even go there.
Lol. <3 u ferret. U the best!
AmberNichole
New Member
I did not plan on commenting on this post anymore, but I do not want it deleted. Regardless of my opinion, there is a lot of good points and information given on BOTH sides of this debate (or whatever you want to call it). I appreciate the people who stuck up for me, and I also appreciate the people who disagree with me. This gives me a broad inside to the human psyche. Ethos, Pathos, and Logos people
That being said i did get upset with the contradictions and hypocritical statements. So I did get slightly defensive. I still stand by my statements that no life is worth more than another. We as humans take these creatures out of their natural world (CB or WC) and place then in a cage for our own entertainment and/or satisfaction. These animals need to be fed. You need to be fed. Everything ultimately dies one way or another.
My chameleon's (and my other panthers, as well as my savannah monitor) main diet is dubia roches that are gutloaded with bee pollen, kale, collard greens, carrots, and whatever else I happen to have in the house. I dust with Repashy's calcium plus, super pig, and super vite. I am well aware of their nutritional needs. I also breed hissers and fruit flies.
The Cuban Brown Anole is an introduced species that has literally wiped out the native Florida green anole population. I am sorry some people found this sad, that one was given to a chameleon. Truthfully they should be wiped out, so that the native species can gain back their native environment. I do like them though, and will sit for hours observing their behavior. That being said I really like cows, lambs, pigs, ect. These animals are extremely intelligent and in some cases (such as pigs) far exceed the learning capacity, and intelligence of domesticated dogs. Yet we as mammals, still eat these mammals. Mammals eating mammals, no different than one reptile eating another reptile.
Let's agree to disagree and respect each other. Like i already stated, this thread brings up many interesting ideas and facts. Just because some people cannot agreed, does not mean that the entire thing should be deleted, in my opinion. But then again, this is just my opinion
Peace out
That being said i did get upset with the contradictions and hypocritical statements. So I did get slightly defensive. I still stand by my statements that no life is worth more than another. We as humans take these creatures out of their natural world (CB or WC) and place then in a cage for our own entertainment and/or satisfaction. These animals need to be fed. You need to be fed. Everything ultimately dies one way or another.
My chameleon's (and my other panthers, as well as my savannah monitor) main diet is dubia roches that are gutloaded with bee pollen, kale, collard greens, carrots, and whatever else I happen to have in the house. I dust with Repashy's calcium plus, super pig, and super vite. I am well aware of their nutritional needs. I also breed hissers and fruit flies.
The Cuban Brown Anole is an introduced species that has literally wiped out the native Florida green anole population. I am sorry some people found this sad, that one was given to a chameleon. Truthfully they should be wiped out, so that the native species can gain back their native environment. I do like them though, and will sit for hours observing their behavior. That being said I really like cows, lambs, pigs, ect. These animals are extremely intelligent and in some cases (such as pigs) far exceed the learning capacity, and intelligence of domesticated dogs. Yet we as mammals, still eat these mammals. Mammals eating mammals, no different than one reptile eating another reptile.
Let's agree to disagree and respect each other. Like i already stated, this thread brings up many interesting ideas and facts. Just because some people cannot agreed, does not mean that the entire thing should be deleted, in my opinion. But then again, this is just my opinion
Peace out
drcrossfire
Avid Member
Id like to continue the discussion;
If it's a natural part of their diet and we can find a safe means of doing so- would it be beneficial to their health... Opposed to supplementing with dusts.
Not as a moral debate, but as a more scientific discussion.
If it's a natural part of their diet and we can find a safe means of doing so- would it be beneficial to their health... Opposed to supplementing with dusts.
Not as a moral debate, but as a more scientific discussion.
AmberNichole
New Member
It is interesting to me. Snakes and monitors rarely need "dusting" and "gutloading" because they eat whole prey. They get all the nutrients they need from the bones, organs, ect I do know that excess protein in chams, and iguanas can cause the liver to have issues..Most of these studies have been done on herbivorous iguanas though, I wonder how many have been done on chameleons? I should research this more.
moogle73
New Member
Well, small reptiles ARE a natural part of their diet in the wild (they are also known to eat very small mammals and birds in the wild). But I would never consider it as a "staple" to replace all insects and supplements as there are a few issues with them as feeders.
Such as some of the risks involved, parasites, pesticides, size, etc so for most people the "risks" out weigh any potential benefit they will gain. Also anoles are high in protein, more than is needed in a chameleons diet for continued consumption which can cause issues. So if it is chosen as a feeder, it should be more of a treat and not a constant staple IMO
moogle73
New Member
Yeah, I would like to see some actual scientific data on it as well regarding the protein and liver issues
It's easy to say 'yes they do eat small vertebrates in the wild', but to what extent? What percentage of the natural diet of wild chameleons is actually composed of small vertebrates? And is it only because there is nothing else available or are they choosing to eat those despite plenty of bugs around? Without taking these factors into consideration that statement is really too incomplete to be a valid argument scientifically. Unfortunately this is one area of study (of the many involving chameleons) that is lacking so we only have a few sources to go on for true evidence. In this report of 'wild' Jackson's chams in Hawaii there is a complete analysis of the stomach contents of 34 chams: http://hbs.bishopmuseum.org/publications/pdf/chamaeleo-report.pdf. Vertebrate prey species isn't even a notable percentage. So to say 'this is natural' is a bit of a stretch. Just because it happens on occasion in the wild does not make it a natural behavior if it is not a consistent behavior. I have no doubt some of the larger species like oustalets or parsonii may consume a higher percentage than smaller species, but I still do not think it is a significant contribution to their diet enough that we need to try to replicate it. And, there is no reason to do so imo as a chameleon can live a very healthy long life completely through well rounded gutloading. Giving them a 'boost' is not a valid argument either. Just like people don't take one big vitamin once a month. The key is solid nutrition consistently over a long period of time to promote better health. Is one vertebrate prey item the end of the world? No. But to argue this is natural so there's nothing wrong with it is flawed deeper than the emotional component attached to it.
little leaf
Avid Member
thanks for the link !! I find this very interesting , as I have Jacksons, and I started to feed snails a bit ago in part due to the report on how they are using Jacksons to track snails now- and how snails are a part of their diet - I took one of the snails to the vet w/ me last week, he thought it was great she was eating them, and the calcium she was getting from them
AmberNichole
New Member
Good point. I do have to point out though that chameleons in Hawaii are 100% invasive and anything they eat in the "wild" there can not scientifically represent what they would eat in their natural habitat. Studies about chameleon diet in their natural habitat would be very interesting though.
As you'll notice, the title of the paper is "Dietary analysis of the invasive lizard Chamaeleo jacksonii from a ...". This is in fact probably the only reason this study exists because the concern was the effect of said invasive species on native fauna. No, it is not a perfect representation of the wild for that reason, but I think it is silly to not consider it one of the best (if not only) scientifc sources we have because the parallel is going to be similar. There are many invertebrates and small vertebrates on Hawaii (many of which are also invasive) so even though they may not be the exact same species on Madagascar/Africa there is still enough variety that the parallel should correlate enough to at least give us a trend to follow for truly natural behavior. There are surprisingly far more scientific studies on the hemipenes of chameleons than their diets! Even more studies on their hunting habits than what they're actually hunting.
little leaf
Avid Member
yes, I know they are- and its kinda sad, they are really wiping out the snails, I wish I could find the link on how they are using the chams to find the snails, it was really neat - they put little gps things on them, and then track them up the mountains -
