Gular Edema?

[BuddhaBud]

Chameleon Info:

• Your Chameleon - The species, sex, and age of your chameleon. How long has it been in your care? Veiled Chameleon named Buddha, male, 1 year & about 2 months old (born 1/4/17) - we adopted him June 6th, 2017 so just shy of 8 months.
• Handling - How often do you handle your chameleon? Daily. He's very tame & non aggressive.
• Feeding - What are you feeding your cham? What amount? What is the schedule? How are you gut-loading your feeders? His diet consists of a combination of goliath hornworms, silkworms, dubia's & an organic spring salad mix. Depending on what we have available, he'll eat either 1-2 large hornworms / day OR 3-4 medium silk/hornworms / day OR 1 large dubia / day, fed in the morning. We offer greens in the afternoon, or he munches on his umbrella tree. He's really not a fan of dubia's, though he does consume them occasionally. The hormworms are gut loaded with Repashy Superhorn, silkworms with mulberry silkworm feed, dubia's with organic greens & Fluker's orange cubes. We've been out of silkworms since the holidays.
• Supplements - What brand and type of calcium and vitamin products are you dusting your feeders with and what is the schedule? Rep-Cal Calcium (no phosphorus, no vit. D3) - daily. Repti Calcium (with vit. D3) - once monthly, week one. Rep-Cal Herptivite Multivitamins - once monthly, week three.
• Watering - What kind of watering technique do you use? How often and how long to you mist? Do you see your chameleon drinking? We mist his cage 3-4 times daily, for about 1 minute long increments, using a pressurized pump mister. There's a fogger directed down through the top of the cage that also provides a steady drip onto his vines. We learned early our veiled was unique - not only would he snatch water droplets out of the air, he would also drink from a dish. Therefore, we have two small ramekin's we refill & wash daily with ambient temp filtered water - he drinks them down everyday & we often see him striking the water for a drink or two.
• Fecal Description - Briefly note colors and consistency from recent droppings. Has this chameleon ever been tested for parasites? His droppings are brown & white with clear urate. He's very regular, pooping in the morning around 8-9AM daily. Never been tested.
• History - Any previous information about your cham that might be useful to others when trying to help you. We adopted him from a local family run petstore with great reviews. They knew the breeder & the lil' guy was in great shape when we took him home. We did a lot of research prior to adopting him but there's always more to learn.. When Buddha was upgraded from his juvenile cage (18"x18"x36") to his adult enclosure (2'x2'x4'), we had some issues develop from him climbing all over the screens - he ended up losing about half his toe-nails, poor guy. One of his feet began to show signs of infection so we immediately took him to see a Herpetologist who prescribed an oral antibiotic. The treatment was successful & he's been slowly regrowing his nails since.

Cage Info:

• Cage Type - Describe your cage (Glass, Screen, Combo?) What are the dimensions? Buddha's room is a 2'x2'x4' ReptiBreeze screen mesh cage. The inside is retrofitted with 1x1 cm weather treated garden fencing on all surfaces but the door - so he grips the fencing, not the screens. The cage is about 2' off the ground within a shelving unit.
• Lighting - What brand, model, and types of lighting are you using? What is your daily lighting schedule? 24" Reptisun Terrarium hood w/ T5 HO UBV linear bulb, 75w Repti Tuff splashproof halogen basking lamp & 50w Repti Tuff splashproof halogen basking lamp (dimmed down). On at 7:30AM off at 7:30PM.
• Temperature - What temp range have you created (cage floor to basking spot)? Lowest overnight temp? How do you measure these temps? His basking spot's (top fourth of the cage) range from 85-90 degrees F. The lower three fourths of his cage range from 80 to 70 degrees F. Lowest overnight temps are 65-70 degrees F. We take precise measurements with a heat gun & measure the room temp with a Galileo Thermometer.
• Humidity - What are your humidity levels? How are you creating and maintaining these levels? What do you use to measure humidity? Daily his humidity ranges from 40-60%. We use a fogger pointed in his cage from above (on when he's awake only) & we have large humidifier in the same room as his cage (perpetual). We mist is cage 3-4 times daily with a pressurized pump mister. A MistKing is in the near future. We have hygrometer inside the enclosure.
• Plants - Are you using live plants? If so, what kind? Not in his cage, no. We use fake plants / vines within his cage & he has an umbrella tree to free range in.
• Placement - Where is your cage located? Is it near any fans, air vents, or high traffic areas? At what height is the top of the cage relative to your room floor? The cage is about 2' off the ground , within a shelving unit. We have 9' ceilings & the top of the cage is about 2.5' from it. There are no windows, fans, or vents near the cage nor in his room. The cage is also upstairs in a "loft" area, where it naturally stays a little warmer. There is a skylight in his room.
• Location - Where are you geographically located? Minneapolis, MN

Current Problem - The current problem you are concerned about. We've recently noticed Buddha seems to have an enlarged lower gular area.. In doing some quick research stumbled upon "Gular Edemas" which looked similar to what Buddha's got going on. I've heard anything from heart failure (?!?!?!) to over-supplementation could cause an edema. Has anyone seem this before?? Should we take him to the vet?! Despite his throat, his behavior hasn't changed, he's still eating, pooping & drinking normally. My fiance & I would really appreciate another opinion... Please see pix:

 

[carol5208]

Have seen so many cases of this over the years. I can say this form experience with one of mine that is is not life threatening. It may come and go in severity. The panther that I had lived to be 6.5 yrs. I adopted him from a member on here when he was about 4 yrs old and he had it bad when I got him. There are many opinions on what causes it and no real cure or how to get rid of it. I honestly wouldn’t worry too much about it. It may not look pretty at times, but I don’t think it is going to kill your chameleon.

 

[BuddhaBud]

Have seen so many cases of this over the years. I can say this form experience with one of mine that is is not life threatening. It may come and go in severity. The panther that I had lived to be 6.5 yrs. I adopted him from a member on here when he was about 4 yrs old and he had it bad when I got him. There are many opinions on what causes it and no real cure or how to get rid of it. I honestly wouldn’t worry too much about it. It may not look pretty at times, but I don’t think it is going to kill your chameleon.

Thank you for your reply Carol - since this post I've done more research & have drawn some conclusions...

- Besides this newly developed edema, Buddha has exhibited healthy & consistent behavior, so I'm ruling out heart attacks, liver & / or kidney failure as the cause (for now).
- Vitamin A hypervitaminosis was a possibility.. So we called our Vet for her opinion (She's a super cool lizard lady), she brought up the same thing - since Vitamin A is fat-soluble it stays in the body longer & has the potential to build up, especially in those lil' cute bodies. Curiously, Buddha doesn't have any retinol or Vitamin A in any of his supplements, so it can't be coming from the dustings.
- We called the pet store that supplies the goliath hornworms we feed him.. they come in tubs with a premix food & we were wondering what the gut-load premix was actually providing to the hornworms (& in turn, to Buddha). We found the premix to be a mulberry leaf & other greens "mash". After a quick google search, we found mulberry leaves to contain seemingly small amounts of Vitamin A, but nothing crazy.
- The only other variable in his diet at this moment is KALE. Dear god, the kale.. after a quick search, 1 cup of raw kale has "10,302 IU's of Vitamin A", which is 206% of a HUMAN's daily value, I can only imagine what it's like for a chameleon! (http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/vegetables-and-vegetable-products/2461/2) ...And of course kale is his favorite leafy snack, he goes HAM on that stuff..

Therefore, in conclusion: Buddha's gular edema, seemingly caused by hypervitaminosis via the massive amounts of Vitamin A in the raw kale we feed him on a weekly basis. We'll be cutting the kale immediately.. poor guy, he needs to detox. If his edema lessens, I think that'll be a strong indicator it's the kale / too much Vitamin A. Unfortunately it was one of the only green's he would eat. Hopefully it'll be easy to find another leafy snack that doesn't have so much Vitamin A!

This has certainly been a learning experience, regarding one of the more technical aspects of chameleon husbandry. Hopefully others will be able to learn from our mistakes!
Maybe we'll post a pic of his progress, if there's any. Wish us luck!

 

[kinyonga]

The only form if vitamin A that comes from kale and mulberry leaves is prOformed vitamin A which the body converts as needed to prEformed vitamin A..so that shouldn't be the reason for the gular edema. Even if veiled chameleons can indeed convert prOformed to prEformed they aren't supposed to convert more than is needed by the body. However vitamin A and D3 (and calcium) need to be in balance so I don't know if he is getting too much D3 if that would play a part with the vitamin A conversion.

Not saying that the kale might not still be the culprit.

These might help...
http://www.chameleonnews.com/05JunDescamps.html
http://www.uvma.org/chameleon/edema.htm

 

[BuddhaBud]

The only form if vitamin A that comes from kale and mulberry leaves is prOformed vitamin A which the body converts as needed to prEformed vitamin A..so that shouldn't be the reason for the gular edema. Even if veiled chameleons can indeed convert prOformed to prEformed they aren't supposed to convert more than is needed by the body. However vitamin A and D3 (and calcium) need to be in balance so I don't know if he is getting too much D3 if that would play a part with the vitamin A conversion.

Not saying that the kale might not still be the culprit.

These might help...
http://www.chameleonnews.com/05JunDescamps.html
http://www.uvma.org/chameleon/edema.htm

Thanks Kinyonga - Yeah, these are great articles, though concerning. After reading Descamps article about gutloading, I'm wondering if it's hornworms now When I spoke to the place we get Buddha's worms from & they mentioned this "mulberry" mash stuff, I'm not sure if that was right.. (I think they were confusing the silkworm food with the hornworm food, but I could be wrong...) The stuff in the tubs look just like Repashy Superfoods Superhorn gel premix.. I'm reading the label now & there's a few red flags.. corn meal, soy flour, yeast, also there's a Vitamin A & D3 supplement in it. There's no table, it just lists ingredients so there's no way to tell what the values are for each. Maybe the low quality of the mix, plus the constant D3 & Vit. A supply via hornworms ON TOP OF the dustings, is the source? Ugh, I hope to figure this out quickly.. the last thing I wanna do is kill him.

Have you ever ran into this problem? What do you feed your cham & what do you gut-load their bugs with?

 

[BuddhaBud]

So just an update - it's about 1 week later & still no change in the edema. We read an article today... "trying to cure gular edema is the same as walking on top of a thin bridge blindfolded".. so yeah, time to consult the experts. We booked Buddha a visit to our herp vet for next Friday.

We've been working with our local pet store as well (they're great people) - they have some veterinary resources they're going to utilize to learn more about edemas on their end & report back to us. I really feel like they're on our side!

We'll post any answers gleaned from this journey here in the next week or so.. hopefully this can serve as a learning experience for others, it certainly has been for us.

 

[kinyonga]

You said.."Maybe the low quality of the mix, plus the constant D3 & Vit. A supply via hornworms ON TOP OF the dustings, is the source?"...what constant vitamin A and D3 comes from the hornworms??

 

[carol5208]

I still think it is a crap shoot and is mere speculation on the cause. Like i said, the chameleon that I owned before that had it, was never really given supplements and surely the guy did not gutload his crickets properly. He told me he would throw regular lettuce in there once in awhile. The edema never seemed to bother him or hinder him in anyway. Personally, i wouldn’t spend a fortune at the vet on something that is not life threatening or going to effect your chameleon’s quality of life. i mean the decision is yours. Just putting in my 2 cents worth here. Also, it can be stressful on your chameleon running it back and forth to the vet, taking blood, etc when it really is not all that necessary.

 

[BuddhaBud]

You said.."Maybe the low quality of the mix, plus the constant D3 & Vit. A supply via hornworms ON TOP OF the dustings, is the source?"...what constant vitamin A and D3 comes from the hornworms??

There's vitamin A & D3 supplements in the "Repashy Superhorn gut load" diet they're on. We've switched him back to silkworms for now.

 

[BuddhaBud]

I still think it is a crap shoot and is mere speculation on the cause. Like i said, the chameleon that I owned before that had it, was never really given supplements and surely the guy did not gutload his crickets properly. He told me he would throw regular lettuce in there once in awhile. The edema never seemed to bother him or hinder him in anyway. Personally, i wouldn’t spend a fortune at the vet on something that is not life threatening or going to effect your chameleon’s quality of life. i mean the decision is yours. Just putting in my 2 cents worth here. Also, it can be stressful on your chameleon running it back and forth to the vet, taking blood, etc when it really is not all that necessary.

Right, which is why I'd like to stop guessing & ask an expert's opinion.. If there's something we can do to remedy the situation, I feel that's our responsibility as his caretakers. We can afford the visits & the clinic is a short 10 minute drive from our spot. From what I've read an edema can be a symptom of several things.. some of which are life threatening, some of which are not. I'm glad the edema was not life threatening for your panther. I hope it's not for our cham, either.
Today was the worst we've seen his throat

It's getting worse...

 

[carol5208]

Yes there were days with mine also where it was very severe and other days it was non existant. If they figure out a direct cause and "cure" by all means let us know. I do hope though that your vet is totally experienced with chameleons and not just reptiles. I have found there is a big difference. When I took mine in to my vet, never figured out a cause therefore there was no treatment or cure. I tried changing up gutloads, supplements and nothing mattered I have seen where keepers end up knowing more than the vets. True story . Have been a keeper myself for 8 yrs now and trust me I have seen alot. Best of luck to you! He is a handsome Veild and I think its wonderful you want to give him the best of care.

 

[jajeanpierre]

Right, which is why I'd like to stop guessing & ask an expert's opinion.. If there's something we can do to remedy the situation, I feel that's our responsibility as his caretakers. We can afford the visits & the clinic is a short 10 minute drive from our spot. From what I've read an edema can be a symptom of several things.. some of which are life threatening, some of which are not. I'm glad the edema was not life threatening for your panther. I hope it's not for our cham, either.
Today was the worst we've seen his throat
View attachment 200226
It's getting worse...
View attachment 200227

I doubt your vet is going to be able to solve this. I work with a species that is very susceptible to edema and really, no one knows why apparently healthy chameleons develop edema.

Edema is basically excess fluid that has leaked into the tissues. Gravity determines where you see it and chameleons are just built to show it most dramatically in their throat area. Based on your name, I suspect you are not a woman who has experienced fluid retention. Women get edema all the time. Some women are more susceptible to it.

There are many reasons for edema. The most serious are major organ failure. Most causes are never found.

I've found certain shipments of feeder insects will cause edema. My gut feeling is that a high carb diet for the feeder insects is part of the problem. I recently had edema in a large number of my collection and I think I traced it down to my feeding only sweet potato to my roaches which is my staple. I am suspect of the soy based diet of commercial hornworms and silkworms. Supplements seem to cause problems.

I think a shortage of Vitamin A is more likely to cause edema than an overdose. Most chameleons are very deficient of Vitamin A. I've given high doses of Vitamin A and have never found it to cause edema. I use human grade Vitamin A gel caps and give a drop once a month on a feeder bug.

Kale does not have any Vitamin A in it. It has the precursor of Vitamin A, Beta Carotene. There is nothing in the scientific literature to suggest that chameleons can convert Beta Carotene to Vitamin A; in fact, there is quite the opposite.

Low protein can cause edema as they need a particular blood protein to keep the fluids inside the blood vessels. This kind of low protein is usually traced to a very heavy parasite load which he certainly doesn't look like he has.

If he were mine, I would increase dramatically the misting and humidity. I would feed him a lot of hornworms fed on some leafy green, not that soy-based feed they come with. I would dose him with human grade Vitamin A (one drop of 8000IU Vitamin A) and follow it up a week later with another drop on a feeder and then dose once a month. I hand feed to give them their Vitamin A. I would also get him out in natural sunlight. I would cut out all supplements except the Vitamin A as described above until his edema is under control. I would definitely avoid Vitamin D. I might give plain calcium or I might not. Everything with me "depends."

I would change the feeder bugs. Commercial crickets have been a real trigger for edema for me.

One last thought: Reptile vets have their limits. They are generalists and not usually experts on even one species. Nutrition is not something that is taught very well. One other thing, it rarely causes any problems but is an indicator that something is amiss.

 

[carol5208]

So many conflicting opinions! I don’t mean me, as I am not disagreeing with anything you are saying. i am talking about Chameleon Central on FB which I believe you belong too. They all say over supplementation on there and overdose of Vitamin A!! They say to stop the multi vitamin. Bottom line is if it is not determined to be kidney failure(which in most cases its not) I really do not see it harming the chameleon in that bad of a way. Ok granted, it does not look real pretty! I have a friend in Chicago that had a Veild that had Edema also. I believe he lived until 8 yrs old or more. He had the edema for many, many years. There are certainly more conditions life threatening than this in my opinion.

 

[kinyonga]

You might want to read this...Dr. Ken Lopez was well known on the Adcham forum....
http://www.uvma.org/chameleon/edema.htm

 

[jajeanpierre]

So many conflicting opinions! I don’t mean me, as I am not disagreeing with anything you are saying. i am talking about Chameleon Central on FB which I believe you belong too. They all say over supplementation on there and overdose of Vitamin A!! They say to stop the multi vitamin. Bottom line is if it is not determined to be kidney failure(which in most cases its not) I really do not see it harming the chameleon in that bad of a way. Ok granted, it does not look real pretty! I have a friend in Chicago that had a Veild that had Edema also. I believe he lived until 8 yrs old or more. He had the edema for many, many years. There are certainly more conditions life threatening than this in my opinion.

I would be very very careful listening to what "everyone" says because often they are only parroting what they have heard and have no personal experience with the conditions they are talking about nor have they done any actual research into the problem or even talked at length to vets about it. I find there are a lot of "experts" who have very little actual experience.

Experience to me is not just keeping a single chameleon alive for more than two years. Experience is more than dealing with problems; it is the very absence of problems. Good chameleon keeping means problem-free animals. If you have multitudes of health problems the husbandry is off either in your home or whomever raised and cared for the mother of your chameleon and her babies. (Vitamin A and calcium are put into the eggs and last a baby months. A deficient mother produces deficient babies right out of the shell.)

 

[Mawtyplant]

The only form if vitamin A that comes from kale and mulberry leaves is prOformed vitamin A which the body converts as needed to prEformed vitamin A..so that shouldn't be the reason for the gular edema. Even if veiled chameleons can indeed convert prOformed to prEformed they aren't supposed to convert more than is needed by the body. However vitamin A and D3 (and calcium) need to be in balance so I don't know if he is getting too much D3 if that would play a part with the vitamin A conversion.

Not saying that the kale might not still be the culprit.

These might help...
http://www.chameleonnews.com/05JunDescamps.html
http://www.uvma.org/chameleon/edema.htm

Hi Kinyonga, What about the vitamin K ?
This is not the first time a ear a persone blaming the hing "vit a" from the kale (i agree with you.. kale = caratenoids = impossibility for a overdose) .. but I think Vit K (fat one? dont know if Vit K got a pro-formed form?) is really high (like.. 800% of our human need in 100g)

 

[CJ's Exotics]

I would be very very careful listening to what "everyone" says because often they are only parroting what they have heard and have no personal experience with the conditions they are talking about nor have they done any actual research into the problem or even talked at length to vets about it. I find there are a lot of "experts" who have very little actual experience.

Experience to me is not just keeping a single chameleon alive for more than two years. Experience is more than dealing with problems; it is the very absence of problems. Good chameleon keeping means problem-free animals. If you have multitudes of health problems the husbandry is off either in your home or whomever raised and cared for the mother of your chameleon and her babies. (Vitamin A and calcium are put into the eggs and last a baby months. A deficient mother produces deficient babies right out of the shell.)

That is why you can't just learn the black and white, you have to understand the grey, especially before passing it on. (Thanks @DeremensisBlue! )

 

[kinyonga]

@Mawtyplant said..."Hi Kinyonga, What about the vitamin K ?
This is not the first time a ear a persone blaming the hing "vit a" from the kale (i agree with you.. kale = caratenoids = impossibility for a overdose) .. but I think Vit K (fat one? dont know if Vit K got a pro-formed form?) is really high (like.. 800% of our human need in 100g)"...vitamin K could be part of it but so could other things in the kale...or it could still be something else altogether.

If it's a husbandry issue (supplements, gutloading/feeding the insects, etc) then we might be able to solve it...but it can still be a medical issue such as organ failure that a vet would be needed for...and the medical issue could even have been created by a husbandry issue.

 

[BuddhaBud]

I doubt your vet is going to be able to solve this. I work with a species that is very susceptible to edema and really, no one knows why apparently healthy chameleons develop edema.

Edema is basically excess fluid that has leaked into the tissues. Gravity determines where you see it and chameleons are just built to show it most dramatically in their throat area. Based on your name, I suspect you are not a woman who has experienced fluid retention. Women get edema all the time. Some women are more susceptible to it.

There are many reasons for edema. The most serious are major organ failure. Most causes are never found.

I've found certain shipments of feeder insects will cause edema. My gut feeling is that a high carb diet for the feeder insects is part of the problem. I recently had edema in a large number of my collection and I think I traced it down to my feeding only sweet potato to my roaches which is my staple. I am suspect of the soy based diet of commercial hornworms and silkworms. Supplements seem to cause problems.

I think a shortage of Vitamin A is more likely to cause edema than an overdose. Most chameleons are very deficient of Vitamin A. I've given high doses of Vitamin A and have never found it to cause edema. I use human grade Vitamin A gel caps and give a drop once a month on a feeder bug.

Kale does not have any Vitamin A in it. It has the precursor of Vitamin A, Beta Carotene. There is nothing in the scientific literature to suggest that chameleons can convert Beta Carotene to Vitamin A; in fact, there is quite the opposite.

Low protein can cause edema as they need a particular blood protein to keep the fluids inside the blood vessels. This kind of low protein is usually traced to a very heavy parasite load which he certainly doesn't look like he has.

If he were mine, I would increase dramatically the misting and humidity. I would feed him a lot of hornworms fed on some leafy green, not that soy-based feed they come with. I would dose him with human grade Vitamin A (one drop of 8000IU Vitamin A) and follow it up a week later with another drop on a feeder and then dose once a month. I hand feed to give them their Vitamin A. I would also get him out in natural sunlight. I would cut out all supplements except the Vitamin A as described above until his edema is under control. I would definitely avoid Vitamin D. I might give plain calcium or I might not. Everything with me "depends."

I would change the feeder bugs. Commercial crickets have been a real trigger for edema for me.

One last thought: Reptile vets have their limits. They are generalists and not usually experts on even one species. Nutrition is not something that is taught very well. One other thing, it rarely causes any problems but is an indicator that something is amiss.

Hello jajeanpierre & thank you for taking the time to lend your expertise! In these past couple days we've certainly witnessed Buddha's edema vary in size.. overall, it seems to have lessened, but then at times it does seem pronounced. Definitely depends on the way he's perched.. When he's climbing downwards gravity takes effect, it grows bigger & seems to puff about his occipital lobes. Also, I am indeed a dame, but am not familiar with edemas myself.

I've learned a lot about Vitamin A & I thank everyone for helping with that. We've switched him over to silkworms for now (on a mulberry feed). Honestly, we haven't fed him crickets in a long time.. We've been cycling between silkworms, horn worms & dubias since roughly last Fall. If we pickup hornworms again, we'll load them with fresh veggies (versus the mash).

Do you think visiting the vet is a waste? She was originally recommended as a Herp specialized vet & is a very cool lady - She owns a handful of lizards & snakes herself, including savanna monitor lizard (SO COOL) & a gracillor chameleon she rehabilitated. We really do value her opinion & she seems to genuinely care about Buddha (she call's him "Big B" lol). She's the closest person to an expert we have access to here & has brought Buddha back from ailment before.

Idk, at this point it's like.. whatever we can do to learn more about where this imbalance is coming from. All we want is for Buddha to live a healthy life. If this edema is not as serious as it could be, maybe we'll just make adjustments to his diet & see how it goes?

 

[BuddhaBud]

Buddha today - his behavior hasn't changed at all (eating, drinking & pooping normally). The edema seems almost non-existent, for now. Pretty crazy how much the size can vary within a couple days...