Gut loading frenzy

[PetNcs]

Now im completely confused.



The entire first post was "do not feed the bugs apples, papaya, orange, lettuce, collard greens and spirulina and rosted almonds, granola and dried blackberries etc. etc. "

This is almost word from word from the "gut load" section.

https://www.chameleonforums.com/care/food/

Then we get this from Misskittles:

in order to guide new keepers we should be advising for them to feed their feeders with foods from the current gutload sheet and either feed them bee pollen and grass right before giving to their chameleon and/or dust the feeder bugs in pollen.

And Pet agrees with this.


https://www.chameleonforums.com/images/ccr/care-images/chameleon-gutload.jpg








HEY PET, WHAT SHOULD OUR BUG FOOD CONSIST OF? Not the "gut load" the daily food.

I
Explicirelly say
DO NOT
FEED CHAMELEONS WITH THAT STUFF YOU CALL GUTLOAD!!! Do normstiff with it yor feeders just before you feed it to the chamelekn because žyoj want the chameleon to eat it from the gut of the feeders.

Imšay feed the feeders lriperly, ad per
What they need to nuild HQ bodies
And fir rhat,
Use anytjinga nd everytjing what is Oak for the BUh and ignoee the chameleon fir now

Amd then, feed the bug to the chameleon

If you want to use the nug as a transport means firmsoˇetjkng, rhe chameleons should eat, use just oollen, nextars and grass
(Simolified), exause rhat is

NATURAL AND SAFE
SAFE

In tjis xase, feed rhe nug immediately to rhe chameleon and do not allow it to dihest it (while rhe otjer stuff, allow a day or somtomdigest and turn into feeders bidy)

 

[jamest0o0]

What I've gotten from petr is that we want to get away from the idea that feeders should only eat nutritious food before being fed off. That it's more important to raise them on these foods than filling them with it prior to feeding time. This discussion could go on forever because I guarantee nobody knows for certain what all of these nutrient dense plant foods do for a reptile's system. We still don't know what they do for people in many ways. Now there is even arguments out there against eating plants for people.

 

[PetNcs]

The entire first post was "do not feed the bugs apples, papaya, orange, lettuce, collard greens and spirulina and rosted almonds, granola and dried blackberries etc. etc. "

NO!!!
This was not what we talked anout.
We talked a lit

No not gutload this tk the bugs

Do kormfeedmit ti the nugs prior tomfeedinv the xhameleon to
Leave itnundifestwd for the chamelein to dihest

Is this clear?

Itmis a nig dofference

 

[PetNcs]

Now THIS was a good debate!
Rhank you all fir greatnoerticipation in it!

I hope noone gor a feeling K am ruděi am just lassionate and say rhinhs black
And white

Wirh deepmrespectntk all
And deepmrespect tomdact, ethics and thenknterestnofmour beloved chameleons

 

[Beman]

Thw fogginh comcept is
Proben by me
For 25+ Years

Come
On, yiu complicate it

EVERYTHING has to be done lroperly
And
EVERYTHING yocan
Dose
Too
Little and too much

It is
On ious that eg in VITAMIN D3
Too FEW: Harmful, deadly
Appropriate: Beneficial
Too MUCH: Harmful, deadly

So
What is wrong with fogging?! ITNIS SAME!!!

Too few fog: UNDERHYDRATION
Appropriate: Perfect hydration
Too much fog: overhydration and health lroblems

This applies
Also
If you do
noT do
It
Properly!

The instruction is very simple and I repeat it for thousand times I explained it to Bill Strand to put it properly into his podcast and I explain and explain and explain:
FOGGING
AT NIGHT ONLY
WHEN COLD UNDER 70F

So, can you please explain me what is so confusing on that?
If
You breathe pure oxyfen at high pressure you die
If you drink 30litres if water at omce you die
If you swallow 5 lbs of salr younwill die

Somwhat is comdusing on a method, that, if used wrongly is causing health problems?
Itmis
Absolutel normal

I am by no means arguing with you. I am simply saying this is how we learn by trial and error. Is this not the way repeatedly through basically everything in life?

I used fogging as the example.

We are given information and told to use it. Then said information is too much or too little. Beneficial or harmful.

T5 lighting is the best on the market for UVB penetration. However too close and the UVI is way to high. Too far away and MBD is an issue.

My point here is we learn by doing. Putting into action methods... So since you even said little is known about their digestion, how can it automatically be bad to gutload feeders with healthy fresh fruits and veg then feeding the feeders to your cham? Have their been studies on this in particular? Or is it speculation that this is harmful?

Again bringing me back to the fact that how do we really know if not through trial of a method. Testing it to see how the results come out.

 

[PetNcs]

I am by no means arguing with you. I am simply saying this is how we learn by trial and error. Is this not the way repeatedly through basically everything in life?

Oh yes, sure, neither do I argue with you. Ee simply rry tomunderstand each other and see the ligjt

Look
Ses trial and dsilure and learning IS rhe point

My issue is

We have no way hlw tomtesg our hypotheses
We can not
Measure

And tomsay simply: we can mot see any hsrm superficially, somit
Must be OK is ethically wrong.


My example with cyanidenis maybe the best example.

We know it is terribly toxic
We knownitnis extremely toxic to fish
We knowmitnis terribly toxic to amphinians
We know rhat nomsingle feeder feeds of almonds

So, instead to try out and jave no clue in what extent this contributed tk aheing as we csn not see the damage and track it

We simply say

Almonds: NO!
Too risky!
And nomratinale in it...


This is the way I suggest.

 

[SourGrape4u]

I dont gut load i just feed my feeders every other day and then dust with sticky tongue. Im sure some are gut loaded from not fully digesting the food and some arent. Either way what they did digest will be nutrition the chameleons will for sure get and the rest would be passed in stool if it cant be digested by the cham.

Here's my view on the whole matter I just ate chili with squash tomatoes rice and whatever else my wife put in it. Everyone else that is human on this forum I'm sure doesn't eat the same or never will eat the same as what I eat but they will live and I will live because we both get nutrients from the different types of food we eat. It doesn't matter if they have apples where they live, it just matters if they eat something that has the same nutritional value, same goes with our chameleons. If I decide to eat a Snickers bar I'm sure the nuts will be digested and half of the other crap in there will be crapped out just like if our chameleons get something they can't digest. As long as the bugs are healthy then the chameleon will be fed healthy. sometimes I get tired of seeing people say stuff about oh we should do exactly as they are in the wild when one living 10 miles away from the other one is probably most likely digesting completely different stuff than the one you're comparing it to. Healthy is healthy doesn't mean you have to eat the exact same thing as long as it has the same healthy nutritional value and vitamins.

 

[PetNcs]

My point here is we learn by doing. Putting into action methods... So since you even said little is known about their digestion, how can it automatically be bad to gutload feeders with healthy fresh fruits and veg then feeding the feeders to your cham? Have their been studies on this in particular? Or is it speculation that this is harmful?

You
Are
Mistaken rhat you can guess on tje helatjy fresh foods that are oK to jimans tk be jealthy to chameleins too.
It does NOT work like this.
Animals
Habe different metabolic processess and what is formone beneficial or harmless can ne lethal tomother ones.
And the lethality can be for
Long invisible!

There is a nice Grasshopper Poekilocerus pictus
Amd it feeds whole life on Calotropis procera
If you eas same ammount of rhe olant as the geasshopper in one meal, you csn die

A cat can not eat chocóate
And coffee and dog food is toxic for cats

You csn kill a dog while letting jim lick on tolthpaste and seallow a little piece of Avocado

Etc etc

You csn not use
Common sense fir these types of
Judgements, you need to KNOW

And the knowledge is lacking

 

[Beman]

You
Are
Mistaken rhat you can guess on tje helatjy fresh foods that are oK to jimans tk be jealthy to chameleins too.
It does NOT work like this.
Animals
Habe different metabolic processess and what is formone beneficial or harmless can ne lethal tomother ones.
And the lethality can be for
Long invisible!

There is a nice Grasshopper Poekilocerus pictus
Amd it feeds whole life on Calotropis procera
If you eas same ammount of rhe olant as the geasshopper in one meal, you csn die

A cat can not eat chocóate
And coffee and dog food is toxic for cats

You csn kill a dog while letting jim lick on tolthpaste and seallow a little piece of Avocado

Etc etc

You csn not use
Common sense fir these types of
Judgements, you need to KNOW

And the knowledge is lacking

Never mind your missing my point... Thank you for the conversation.

 

[jamest0o0]

I dont gut load i just feed my feeders every other day and then dust with sticky tongue. Im sure some are gut loaded from not fully digesting the food and some arent. Either way what they did digest will be nutrition the chameleons will for sure get and the rest would be passed in stool if it cant be digested by the cham.

Here's my view on the whole matter I just ate chili with squash tomatoes rice and whatever else my wife put in it. Everyone else that is human on this forum I'm sure doesn't eat the same or never will eat the same as what I eat but they will live and I will live because we both get nutrients from the different types of food we eat. It doesn't matter if they have apples where they live, it just matters if they eat something that has the same nutritional value, same goes with our chameleons. If I decide to eat a Snickers bar I'm sure the nuts will be digested and half of the other crap in there will be crapped out just like if our chameleons get something they can't digest. As long as the bugs are healthy then the chameleon will be fed healthy. sometimes I get tired of seeing people say stuff about oh we should do exactly as they are in the wild when one living 10 miles away from the other one is probably most likely digesting completely different stuff than the one you're comparing it to. Healthy is healthy doesn't mean you have to eat the exact same thing as long as it has the same healthy nutritional value and vitamins.

If I'm following you right, this is why for people they often recommend to just mix up the colors of food rather than eating any one specific thing to be healthy.

Anyway, what you do is kind of the same as me, I just put nutritious foods in for the feeders on a regular basis and feed them off when the chameleon wants to eat lol.

What people are looking for with gutloading is the micronutrient content, which has been shown to have use in humans, but with a reptile it's just a guess.

 

[nightanole]

It is the difference in concept he is referring to.

Bug Food: includes All those foods in proper balance.

Gut Load: Implies that it is something they just ate and have not digested. This is the part that is useless.

So its ok to feed everything that is on the gutload sheets, as long as its not fed to the bugs the day before feeding? Only feed them grass and bee pollen the day before feeding off?

Yes i understand the concepts of "gutload" vs "food". But chameleonforums "gutload" sheets/sections are not really "gutloads", they are "food" and should not be fed before feeding the bugs to chameleons?

 

[PetNcs]

I dont gut load i just feed my feeders every other day and then dust with sticky tongue. Im sure some are gut loaded from not fully digesting the food and some arent. Either way what they did digest will be nutrition the chameleons will for sure get and the rest would be passed in stool if it cant be digested by the cham.

Here's my view on the whole matter I just ate chili with squash tomatoes rice and whatever else my wife put in it. Everyone else that is human on this forum I'm sure doesn't eat the same or never will eat the same as what I eat but they will live and I will live because we both get nutrients from the different types of food we eat. It doesn't matter if they have apples where they live, it just matters if they eat something that has the same nutritional value, same goes with our chameleons. If I decide to eat a Snickers bar I'm sure the nuts will be digested and half of the other crap in there will be crapped out just like if our chameleons get something they can't digest. As long as the bugs are healthy then the chameleon will be fed healthy. sometimes I get tired of seeing people say stuff about oh we should do exactly as they are in the wild when one living 10 miles away from the other one is probably most likely digesting completely different stuff than the one you're comparing it to. Healthy is healthy doesn't mean you have to eat the exact same thing as long as it has the same healthy nutritional value and vitamins.

I agree with your accent on varianility and imdividual differences.
However they stay within tje same pattern...and within the general same concept.

I am a big proponemt of understanding what they est in tje wild as tjisnimformation is a solitely essential
Somtjat we csn rhen mesningfully simulate it and umderstand what we are doing witb an animal rhat ised tens of millions of yesrs to adjust on the comditions tjey live in

You will very likely agree tjat it does. Ot make sense
To feed a horse pulled pork with bsrbecue sauce
And that a collinri will hsrdly thrive on weed and sand.

Same, we need the info whatbthey eat to have an idea

 

[Beman]

So its ok to feed everything that is on the gutload sheets, as long as its not fed to the bugs the day before feeding? Only feed them grass and bee pollen the day before feeding off?

Yes i understand the concepts of "gutload" vs "food". But chameleonforums "gutload" sheets/sections are not really "gutloads", they are "food" and should not be fed before feeding the bugs to chameleons?

Even with that... If they should not have vegetation then why grass??? like is this not the same thing?

 

[PetNcs]

So its ok to feed everything that is on the gutload sheets, as long as its not fed to the bugs the day before feeding? Only feed them grass and bee pollen the day before feeding off?

Yes i understand the concepts of "gutload" vs "food". But chameleonforums "gutload" sheets/sections are not really "gutloads", they are "food" and should not be fed before feeding the bugs to chameleons?

Good that we clsrified the distinction...

Now let us please be objective
The materials of CF say
GUTLOADING nothing else

It
Does. Ot even define gutloading
And it comtains all the problematic stuff I was just taken as exsmples
Apples full Of acids
Almonds full of cyanide
Spirulina
Etc

 

[Beman]

Good that we clsrified the distinction...

Now let us please be objective
The materials of CF say
GUTLOADING nothing else

It
Does. Ot even define gutloading
And it comtains all the problematic stuff I was just taken as exsmples
Apples full Of acids
Almonds full of cyanide
Spirulina
Etc


View attachment 280401

So is the issue that we are calling it gutloading??? I am so confused. That is the term that all other forums I have been in use.

 

[PetNcs]

Even with that... If they should not have vegetation then why grass??? like is this not the same thing?

Please that is Meant serious?
If grass and al the other vegetation is so same, si why we people csre so much and jave so much variety of what ee eat and why we mever ever eat simoly grass? Necauee theim utritional value and content of nitrients and ballast and poisons and digestanility is radically different!!
Even same “type” of food has absolutely different composition... you can eat nuts
But you can die if overeating by cahews (die to urushiol) or by almond (cyanide) or you csn have defectous sensing tastes if you overeat by pine nuts (none of them are actually strictly biologically nuts anyway)...

 

[Beman]

Please that is Meant serious?
If grass and al the other vegetation is so same, si why we people csre so much and jave so much variety of what ee eat and why we mever ever eat simoly grass? Necauee theim utritional value and content of nitrients and ballast and poisons and digestanility is radically different!!
Even same “type” of food has absolutely different composition... you can eat nuts
But you can die if overeating by cahews (die to urushiol) or by almond (cyanide) or you csn have defectous sensing tastes if you overeat by pine nuts (none of them are actually strictly biologically nuts anyway)...

No it was meant to be serious. And the emoji face expresses my level of confusion defining the difference. Because I simply do not understand how grass with bee pollen is ok to give prior to feeding but the fruit and veg with bee pollen is not ok to use prior to feeding with Bee pollen.

If vegetation is not digestible and you say we should not use it then why would we give grass instead. Is this not the same plant matter that is not digestible?

I am trying to understand...

 

[PetNcs]

So is the issue that we are calling it gutloading??? I am so confused. That is the term that all other forums I have been in use.

Csn you please read the tjread? O jabe explained it several times.

Yes, the less importsnt problem is that we mix jp these two terms which mean something completely different and itnis importsnt

Nut the main issue is
If we leave undigested “gutload”
In tje intestines of feeders
Chsmeleons habe to tey to digest it
And this is eitjer
Mesningless
Or
Harmful

If rhe feeders will difest it rhemselves, it becomes neutral.

This is why I figjt against gutloadning frenzy
But
Fully support
HQ Feeding of feeders

Rhe digfference is technically seversl hours but the impact is totslly differe t

 

[Beman]

Csn you please read the tjread? O jabe explained it several times.

Yes, the less importsnt problem is that we mix jp these two terms which mean something completely different and itnis importsnt

Nut the main issue is
If we leave undigested “gutload”
In tje intestines of feeders
Chsmeleons habe to tey to digest it
And this is eitjer
Mesningless
Or
Harmful

If rhe feeders will difest it rhemselves, it becomes neutral.

This is why I figjt against gutloadning frenzy
But
Fully support
HQ Feeding of feeders

Rhe digfference is technically seversl hours but the impact is totslly differe t

Ok so I feed my feeders a variety of veg and a fruit with bee pollen. Is that better?

And I am reading everything repeatedly.

 

[PetNcs]

No it was meant to be serious. And the emoji face expresses my level of confusion defining the difference. Because I simply do not understand how grass with bee pollen is ok to give prior to feeding but the fruit and veg with bee pollen is not ok to use prior to feeding with Bee pollen.

If vegetation is not digestible and you say we should not use it then why would we give grass instead. Is this not the same plant matter that is not digestible?

I am trying to understand...

Nee pollen gets digested and its. Emefkts have ňbeem discussed many times
If you still need some feed, here we go


The Mystery Of Bee Pollen Unleashed
Bee Pollen As Supplement And Remedy
The Secret Of Manuka
CHAMELEONOCULTURE: Chameleon Captive Husbandry


https://www.chameleons.info/l/the-mystery-of-bee-pollen-unleashed/

https://www.chameleons.info/l/bee-pollen-as-supplement-and-remedy/

https://www.chameleons.info/l/the-secret-of-manuka/

https://www.chameleons.info/l/feeding-feeders-versus-gutloading/