PetNcs
Chameleon Enthusiast
One could say petr is an over thinker as well. Maybe you two are meant for each other
I am drastic simplifyer, believe me...
Gut loading frenzy
- Thread starter PetNcs
- Start date
I am drastic simplifyer, believe me...
PetNcs
Chameleon Enthusiast
Absolutely correct conclusion, thank you for rewording a bit but precisely my thoughts
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PetNcs
Chameleon Enthusiast
I don't take offense. But I also think that the way I look at it is pretty common for how others will see it. I did not understand what you meant about my logic lacks feneral niolohical... and maybe I don't need to know lol.
It is funny because out of all the people that have jumped in on this thread. I am very modest in how I gutload and what I use compared to others. I keep mine very simple.
But again thank you for taking the time to have the conversation.
I Improved rhe spelling already, sorry, midnight here and my eyes get tired a bit
I have never seen you off the mark.
PetNcs
Chameleon Enthusiast
nightanole
Chameleon Enthusiast
PetNcs
Chameleon Enthusiast
Nut I would be
Deeply and genuinely interested
What is the real percentage of the components of your “guloading products”
Whether in the sense of the debate theh are thiught as gutload or feeding feeders.
What research and scientific base are your products rhat you produce and sell on the market based on and what is rheir oholosophy and logic...
An info,
We. Or
Allg would expect a producer. Rings lroactively and info, in some
Rather developed
Oarts of the world is required not only by the buyer but also by law...
Kaizen
Chameleon Enthusiast
Ok friends, shall we cut a distinction here?
Gutloading = The practice of feeding your bugs a bunch of healthy stuff just before feeding them off, in the hopes that this partially digested stuff gets to our chameleon via the insects’ gut contents.
Nutrient maximization = The practice of always feeding your bugs maximally nutritious food so that our bugs are at their most nutritious at the time of consumption. This need not be based on the gut contents of the bugs.
I’m happy to hear alternative names for option 2.
Gutloading = The practice of feeding your bugs a bunch of healthy stuff just before feeding them off, in the hopes that this partially digested stuff gets to our chameleon via the insects’ gut contents.
Nutrient maximization = The practice of always feeding your bugs maximally nutritious food so that our bugs are at their most nutritious at the time of consumption. This need not be based on the gut contents of the bugs.
I’m happy to hear alternative names for option 2.
PetNcs
Chameleon Enthusiast
Thank you for the kind translation of the sense
I really want to make the lide if captive chameleons great and
Not miserable.
This is why I try to be polite but steict ifnit
Comes
Tk this mission...
PetNcs
Chameleon Enthusiast
I suggest HQ FEEDING OF FEEDERS
https://www.chameleons.info/l/feeding-feeders-versus-gutloading/
It would
Be very practical if we could
Agree not only on the meaning nut also of
A good
Definition of the terms
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RPCV
Avid Member
Love this discussion. This quote from the the original post is a lens to view this forum in general. "These all recommendations have absolutely no scientific basis, they are repeated and parotted imaginations and formulations of people that dare to introduce to the community things that absolutely do not make sense and are not backed with any measurable experience and no science."
My guess is most advice for chameleons is not based on scientifically tested hypothesis, let alone any studies in peer reviewed literature. This applies to both the concept that gut loading is not nutritionally beneficial to the chameleon but also toPetNcs statement that it "can even be harmful". Would be surprised if there was scientific basis for that too. We just don't know. This topic is even more fun because the effects of gut loading feeders is not easily tested by readily observable outcomes.
What we do know is based on biological plausibility (what makes the most sense?) and the collective experience in this group. These discussions that advance our understanding and make us think is the value this forum provides.
Thanks for starting the conversation (and your passion).
My guess is most advice for chameleons is not based on scientifically tested hypothesis, let alone any studies in peer reviewed literature. This applies to both the concept that gut loading is not nutritionally beneficial to the chameleon but also toPetNcs statement that it "can even be harmful". Would be surprised if there was scientific basis for that too. We just don't know. This topic is even more fun because the effects of gut loading feeders is not easily tested by readily observable outcomes.
What we do know is based on biological plausibility (what makes the most sense?) and the collective experience in this group. These discussions that advance our understanding and make us think is the value this forum provides.
Thanks for starting the conversation (and your passion).
Kaizen
Chameleon Enthusiast
I second this, will ‘HQF’ work? (High quality feed)
@RPCV said..."My guess is most advice for chameleons is not based on scientifically tested hypothesis, let alone any studies in peer reviewed literature"...most of my advice is based on what I have learned from keeping them...if what I do seems to help them live long healthy lives, I continue with it and tell others...if not I change it.
I'm sure there will always be improvements I to make....and other ways of doing things that work too.
You said..."These discussions that advance our understanding and make us think is the value this forum provides"...for sure.
I'm sure there will always be improvements I to make....and other ways of doing things that work too.
You said..."These discussions that advance our understanding and make us think is the value this forum provides"...for sure.
There is sure is a lot of conjecture and heavy handed statements without any scientific backing on this thread. Let me help with that.
They do actually.
AN OVERVIEW OF THE DEVELOPMENT AND EVALUATION OF A GUTLOADING DIET FOR FEEDER CRICKETS FORMULATED TO PROVIDE A BALANCED NUTRIENT SOURCE FOR INSECTIVOROUS AMPHIBIANS AND REPTILES: http://titag.org/2015/2015papers/attardcrickets.pdf
GUT-LOADING DIET EVALUATION FOR CRICKETS (ACHETA DOMESTICUS), MEALWORMS (TENEBRIO MOLITOR), AND SUPERWORMS (ZOPHOBAS MORIO) FOR THE PURPOSES OF OPTIMIZING INSTITUTIONAL PROTOCOLS: https://nagonline.net/wp-content/up...luation-for-crickets-mealworms-superworms.pdf
Cricket species vary in gut loading capacity: Implications for delivery of carotenoids to amphibians: http://www.amphibianark.org/wp-cont...cket-species-vary-in-gut-loading-capacity.pdf
Attard L (2011) The development and evaluation of a gut-loading diet for feeder crickets formulated to provide a balanced nutrient package for insectivorous amphibians and reptiles. In Ward A, Coslik A, Maslanka M, Eds. Proceedings of the Ninth Conference on Zoo and Wildlife Nutrition, AZA Nutrition Advisory Group, Kansas City, Missouri. Barker D, Fitzpatrick MP, and Dierenfeld ES (1998)
Nutrient composition of selected whole invertebrates. Zoo Biol 17:123-134. Coslik AH, Ward AM, and McClements RD (2009) Gut loading as a method to effectively supplement crickets with calcium and vitamin A. In Ward A, Treiber K, Schmidt D, Coslik A, Maslanka M, Eds. Proceedings of the Eighth Conference on Zoo and Wildlife Nutrition, AZA Nutrition Advisory Group, Tulsa, Oklahoma. Hunt AS, Ward AM, and Ferguson G (2001)
Effects of a high calcium diet on gut loading in varying ages of crickets (Acheta domestica) and mealworms (Tenebrio molitor). In Edwards M, Lisi KJ, Schlegel ML, Bray RE, Eds., Proceedings of the Fourth Conference on Zoo and Wildlife Nutrition, AZA Nutrition Advisory Group, Lake Buena Vista, Florida Li H, Vaughan MJ, and Browne RK (2009)
A complex enrichment diet improves growth and health in the endangered Wyoming toad (Bufo baxteri). Zoo Biol 28(3):197-213. McWilliams DA and Leeson S (2001)
Hypovitaminosis A: Are captive-bred insect prey deficient in usable Vitamin A for Anaxyrus (Anura: Bufonidae)?. Opgeroepen op 10:26. Pessier AP and Rodriguez CE (2015)
We do not recommend citrus or almonds in gutload so not even sure why you feel that is a battle worth fighting. Crickets are not ingesting large parts of plants that remain intact, they are digesting it into nutrients first, which then the chameleons consume. So whether or not chameleons can digest plant matter is irrelevant because feeders can.
The scientific papers listed above say that nutritional value of feeders does increase depending on what is fed, which is the entire purpose of gutloading. Do you have scientific sources that say otherwise?
They do actually.
AN OVERVIEW OF THE DEVELOPMENT AND EVALUATION OF A GUTLOADING DIET FOR FEEDER CRICKETS FORMULATED TO PROVIDE A BALANCED NUTRIENT SOURCE FOR INSECTIVOROUS AMPHIBIANS AND REPTILES: http://titag.org/2015/2015papers/attardcrickets.pdf
GUT-LOADING DIET EVALUATION FOR CRICKETS (ACHETA DOMESTICUS), MEALWORMS (TENEBRIO MOLITOR), AND SUPERWORMS (ZOPHOBAS MORIO) FOR THE PURPOSES OF OPTIMIZING INSTITUTIONAL PROTOCOLS: https://nagonline.net/wp-content/up...luation-for-crickets-mealworms-superworms.pdf
Cricket species vary in gut loading capacity: Implications for delivery of carotenoids to amphibians: http://www.amphibianark.org/wp-cont...cket-species-vary-in-gut-loading-capacity.pdf
Attard L (2011) The development and evaluation of a gut-loading diet for feeder crickets formulated to provide a balanced nutrient package for insectivorous amphibians and reptiles. In Ward A, Coslik A, Maslanka M, Eds. Proceedings of the Ninth Conference on Zoo and Wildlife Nutrition, AZA Nutrition Advisory Group, Kansas City, Missouri. Barker D, Fitzpatrick MP, and Dierenfeld ES (1998)
Nutrient composition of selected whole invertebrates. Zoo Biol 17:123-134. Coslik AH, Ward AM, and McClements RD (2009) Gut loading as a method to effectively supplement crickets with calcium and vitamin A. In Ward A, Treiber K, Schmidt D, Coslik A, Maslanka M, Eds. Proceedings of the Eighth Conference on Zoo and Wildlife Nutrition, AZA Nutrition Advisory Group, Tulsa, Oklahoma. Hunt AS, Ward AM, and Ferguson G (2001)
Effects of a high calcium diet on gut loading in varying ages of crickets (Acheta domestica) and mealworms (Tenebrio molitor). In Edwards M, Lisi KJ, Schlegel ML, Bray RE, Eds., Proceedings of the Fourth Conference on Zoo and Wildlife Nutrition, AZA Nutrition Advisory Group, Lake Buena Vista, Florida Li H, Vaughan MJ, and Browne RK (2009)
A complex enrichment diet improves growth and health in the endangered Wyoming toad (Bufo baxteri). Zoo Biol 28(3):197-213. McWilliams DA and Leeson S (2001)
Hypovitaminosis A: Are captive-bred insect prey deficient in usable Vitamin A for Anaxyrus (Anura: Bufonidae)?. Opgeroepen op 10:26. Pessier AP and Rodriguez CE (2015)
Because we do not have access to the vegetation present in the home ranges of chameleon habitats as commercial produce. Just because you can't get one specific plant does not mean that another plant with a similar nutrient profile is going to be "unnatural". It may not be the same but it can have the same benefits. Please do tell me how "natural" the clothes on your back are compared to your ancestors. This is not a good argument to just say because it's not the exact same thing that is it unnatural and therefore harmful.
We do not recommend citrus or almonds in gutload so not even sure why you feel that is a battle worth fighting. Crickets are not ingesting large parts of plants that remain intact, they are digesting it into nutrients first, which then the chameleons consume. So whether or not chameleons can digest plant matter is irrelevant because feeders can.
The scientific papers listed above say that nutritional value of feeders does increase depending on what is fed, which is the entire purpose of gutloading. Do you have scientific sources that say otherwise?
Ah yes, here's some more:
Allen, M.E. 1997. From blackbirds and thrushes… to the gut-loaded cricket: a new approach to zoo animal nutrition. Br J Nutr 78:S135-S143.
Allen ME, Oftedal OT. 1982. Calcium and phosphorus levels in live prey. In AAZPA 1982 Northeastern Regional Proceedings. Toronto, ON. p 120-128
Allen ME, Oftedal OT. 1989. Dietary manipulation of the calcium concentration of feed crickets. J Zoo Wildl Med 20:26-33.
Anderson SJ. 2000. Increasing calcium levels in cultured insects. Zoo Biol 19:1-9.
Barker D, Fitzpatrick MP, Dierenfeld ES. 1998. Nutrient composition of selected whole invertebrates. Zoo Biol 17:123-134.
Bernard JB, Allen ME. 1997. Feeding captive insectivorous animals: Nutritional aspects of insects as food. NAG hand book, Fact Sheet 003. Silver Spring, MD: American Zoo and Aquarium Association. August: p 1-7.
Davis GRF. 1975. Essential dietary amino acids for growth of larvae of the yellow mealworm, Tenebrio molitor L. J Nutr 105:1071-1075.
Finke MD. 2003. Gut loading to enhance the nutrient content of insects as food for reptiles: a mathematical approach. Zoo Biol 22:147-162.
Finke MD. 2004. Nutrient content of insects (2:1562-1575). In: Capinera JL, editor. Encyclopedia of Entomology. Dordrecht, The Netherlands: Kluwer Academic Press. Vol.2 p 1562-1576.
Finke MD, Dunham SU, Cole JS. 2004. Evaluation of various calcium-fortified high moisture commercial products for improving the calcium content of crickets, Acheta domesticus. J Herpetol Med Surg 14:17-20.
Finke MD, Dunham SU, Kwabi CA. 2005. Evaluation of four dry commercial gut loading products for improving the calcium content of crickets, Acheta domesticus. J Herpetol Med Surg 15:7-12.
Hunt AS, Ward AM, Ferguson G. 2001. Effects of a high calcium diet on gut loading in varying ages of crickets (Acheta domestica) and mealworms (Tenebrio molitor). In: Edwards MS, Lisi KJ, Schlegel ML, Bray RE, editors. Proceedings of the 4th Conference on Zoo and Wildlife Nutrition, AZA Nutrition Advisory Group. Lake Buena Vista, FL. p 94-99. 136
Hunt AS, Birt M, Ward AM. 2007. The effect of a produce based diet on mineral, vitamin, and carotenoid content of adult crickets (Acheta domestica). In: Ward AM, Hunt AS, Maslanka M, editors.Proceedings of the 7th Conference on Zoo and Wildlife Nutrition, AZA Nutrition Advisory Group. Knoxville, TN. p 209-216.
Hunt Coslik A, Ward AM, McClements RD. 2009. Gut loading as a method to effectively supplement crickets with calcium and vitamin A. In: Ward A, Treiber K, Schmidt D, Coslik A, Maslanka M, editors. Proceedings of the 8th conference on Zoo and Wildlife Nutrition, AZA Nutrition Advisory Group. Tulsa, OK. p 163-171.
Ogilvy V, Fidgett AL, Preziosi RF. 2012. Differences in carotenoid accumulation among three feeder-cricket species: Implications for carotenoid delivery to captive insectivores. Zoo Biol 31:470-478.
Trusk AM, Crissey SD. 1987. Comparison of calcium and phosphorus levels in crickets fed a high calcium diet versus those dusted with supplement. In: Meehan TP, Allen ME, editors. Proceedings of the 7th Annual Dr. Scholl Conference on the Nutrition of Captive Wild Animals. Vol. VI. Chicago, IL: Lincoln Park Zoological Gardens. p 93-99.
Allen, M.E. 1997. From blackbirds and thrushes… to the gut-loaded cricket: a new approach to zoo animal nutrition. Br J Nutr 78:S135-S143.
Allen ME, Oftedal OT. 1982. Calcium and phosphorus levels in live prey. In AAZPA 1982 Northeastern Regional Proceedings. Toronto, ON. p 120-128
Allen ME, Oftedal OT. 1989. Dietary manipulation of the calcium concentration of feed crickets. J Zoo Wildl Med 20:26-33.
Anderson SJ. 2000. Increasing calcium levels in cultured insects. Zoo Biol 19:1-9.
Barker D, Fitzpatrick MP, Dierenfeld ES. 1998. Nutrient composition of selected whole invertebrates. Zoo Biol 17:123-134.
Bernard JB, Allen ME. 1997. Feeding captive insectivorous animals: Nutritional aspects of insects as food. NAG hand book, Fact Sheet 003. Silver Spring, MD: American Zoo and Aquarium Association. August: p 1-7.
Davis GRF. 1975. Essential dietary amino acids for growth of larvae of the yellow mealworm, Tenebrio molitor L. J Nutr 105:1071-1075.
Finke MD. 2003. Gut loading to enhance the nutrient content of insects as food for reptiles: a mathematical approach. Zoo Biol 22:147-162.
Finke MD. 2004. Nutrient content of insects (2:1562-1575). In: Capinera JL, editor. Encyclopedia of Entomology. Dordrecht, The Netherlands: Kluwer Academic Press. Vol.2 p 1562-1576.
Finke MD, Dunham SU, Cole JS. 2004. Evaluation of various calcium-fortified high moisture commercial products for improving the calcium content of crickets, Acheta domesticus. J Herpetol Med Surg 14:17-20.
Finke MD, Dunham SU, Kwabi CA. 2005. Evaluation of four dry commercial gut loading products for improving the calcium content of crickets, Acheta domesticus. J Herpetol Med Surg 15:7-12.
Hunt AS, Ward AM, Ferguson G. 2001. Effects of a high calcium diet on gut loading in varying ages of crickets (Acheta domestica) and mealworms (Tenebrio molitor). In: Edwards MS, Lisi KJ, Schlegel ML, Bray RE, editors. Proceedings of the 4th Conference on Zoo and Wildlife Nutrition, AZA Nutrition Advisory Group. Lake Buena Vista, FL. p 94-99. 136
Hunt AS, Birt M, Ward AM. 2007. The effect of a produce based diet on mineral, vitamin, and carotenoid content of adult crickets (Acheta domestica). In: Ward AM, Hunt AS, Maslanka M, editors.Proceedings of the 7th Conference on Zoo and Wildlife Nutrition, AZA Nutrition Advisory Group. Knoxville, TN. p 209-216.
Hunt Coslik A, Ward AM, McClements RD. 2009. Gut loading as a method to effectively supplement crickets with calcium and vitamin A. In: Ward A, Treiber K, Schmidt D, Coslik A, Maslanka M, editors. Proceedings of the 8th conference on Zoo and Wildlife Nutrition, AZA Nutrition Advisory Group. Tulsa, OK. p 163-171.
Ogilvy V, Fidgett AL, Preziosi RF. 2012. Differences in carotenoid accumulation among three feeder-cricket species: Implications for carotenoid delivery to captive insectivores. Zoo Biol 31:470-478.
Trusk AM, Crissey SD. 1987. Comparison of calcium and phosphorus levels in crickets fed a high calcium diet versus those dusted with supplement. In: Meehan TP, Allen ME, editors. Proceedings of the 7th Annual Dr. Scholl Conference on the Nutrition of Captive Wild Animals. Vol. VI. Chicago, IL: Lincoln Park Zoological Gardens. p 93-99.
Kaizen
Chameleon Enthusiast
Seriously, check out my blogs.
DocZ
Chameleon Enthusiast
Thanks for posting these papers. This is great evidence that high quality feeding of feeders increases their nutritional value.
DocZ
Chameleon Enthusiast
I think this chart
shows an issue we have to deal with as chameleon keepers
The column for chameleons is essentially blank due to the lack of data regarding wild diet and it’s nutritional value along with lack of research on their requirements.
I’ve heard some information regarding required dietary D3, but much of the rest of this is unknown
shows an issue we have to deal with as chameleon keepers
The column for chameleons is essentially blank due to the lack of data regarding wild diet and it’s nutritional value along with lack of research on their requirements.
I’ve heard some information regarding required dietary D3, but much of the rest of this is unknown
Kaizen
Chameleon Enthusiast
There are several papers that suggest that some chameleons regulate their uvb exposure depending on need. So, for example, panther chameleons given no dietary d3, will bask more. There’s a few pertinent articles sites in the bibliography of:
https://www.chameleonforums.com/blogs/the-philosophy-of-gutloading-part-2.2438/
