Gut loading frenzy

[PetNcs]

Unfortunately we cannot. The industry standard term is “gutloading”. It is what everyone knows and even though some people do not have enough familiarity with it. We can’t just decide one day to change the term used and expect that to change across the board in reptile keeping. Chameleon Forums is not the only one using that term. And “high quality feeders” to me means they are inherently higher quality, not that we are making them so. So I can see where there would be confusion there on the part of the general populace.

You are falsifuing facts.
Gutloading and feeding are different things

We have NOT said HIGH WUAKITY FEEDERS
OH MY GOODNESS CAN YOUNPLEASE PLEASE READ ATMLEATS WITH ATTENTION?

We defined
GUTLOADING (as a orocess of.... )
And
HIGH QUALITY FEEDING OF FEEDERS (as a process...)

 

[PetNcs]

Fair enough, I’m happy to stick with ‘gutloading’.

I am NOT
We have agreed aleeady and xame to a good Consensus
Then someone comes does not read our debate properly, even uses Lies to falsify the arguments and we pass? NO
Gutloading is not same as Feeding
Never ever
Same as
Horse is not a donkey
Saliva are not acid
And gut is not hut

 

[ferretinmyshoes]

I am NOT
We have agreed aleeady and xame to a good Consensus
Then someone comes does not read our debate properly, even uses Lies to falsify the arguments and we pass? NO
Gutloading is not same as Feeding
Never ever
Same as
Horse is not a donkey
Saliva are not acid
And gut is not hut

You forced a consensus by using a blatantly false narrative from your first statement that there was no science to back it up. All those papers discuss feeding high quality foods to improve nutritional value of invertebrates to vertebrates to consume them and called it gutloading. Sorry to have messed up your plans.

 

[PetNcs]

You love to throw anyone under the bus for disagreeing with you. Your very first statement on this thread was a lie by your own standards when you say “there’s no science” and I list 24 scientific papers in my first response. Get over yourself.

Dose is the poison. Those are not recommended as staple ingredients. There is not enough cyanide in almonds to be significant and if you think there is please provide documentation to support that. And because something is acidic it will causes metabolic acidosis? This is absolutely false and not based on anything biologically. Not even worth arguing further than that.

I brought science, you bring insults. I will discuss science if you’d like to partake. You can dislike me all you want but that doesn’t mean you can’t be civil in discourse.
[/QUOTE
It is you whontwist my words
And ininsist there is no science behind HUTLOADING
OF COURSE THERE IS ABOUT FEEDJNGA ND DIGESTION AND NUTRITIVE VALUE!

You chime in and bring only ignoring what we talked anout and miging ip two terms again

Is it civil tomsay a wrong info and instead to apolohize to attack me?

 

[Highway61]

The gutloading, however is meaningless and potentially harmful

I'm okay with the meaningless part but where is your scientific evidence of it being harmful?

 

[Kaizen]

Petr, you have a lot of interesting things to say, but @ferretinmyshoes was simply pointing out a wealth of empirical evidence that appears to speak against your position. Unless, of course, your position is just that we shouldn’t call it ‘gutloading’.

 

[DocZ]

I think there is some value in the distinction between feeding and gutloading

If you use both processes of feeding the bugs, then gutloading them with calcium and multivitamins, you’ll likely increase the mineral and vitamin content delivered to the chameleon.

 

[PetNcs]

...and I’m sort of disappointed that hqf won’t catch on.. Well, Kaizen shall have to find a new way to become famous.

I will use the term in peer reviewed publications, no worries, one book and one paper already in the pipeline
Indo NOT accept falsifying the meaning of terms and consider it a very harmful practiceC especially in a commhnity directed on education

 

[nightanole]

Not to go off topic (do we even have a topic?) but i do find it odd that we have flaxseed, sunflower seed, and almonds as part of the dry gut load.

I mean lets be honest here, if the bug cant eat it in the wild, then grinding it up into powder isnt going to make it digestible.

Its almost like we just threw in things that make people healthier if they put it on their own salad.

Personally my "bug food" has just been whatever is listed on the green iguana society food list.

https://web.archive.org/web/20200223033429/http://www.greenigsociety.org/foodchart.htm

 

[PetNcs]

Petr, you have a lot of interesting things to say, but @ferretinmyshoes was simply pointing out a wealth of empirical evidence that appears to speak against your position. Unless, of course, your position is just that we shouldn’t call it ‘gutloading’.

Yes thisnis my point
I am not sgipid mz goodness. I will reword it
I agree of course and all
Evidence is here that a feeder that has been fed high nutritional food, digested it and put it into its body liquids (not Bloodstream, as Fetreninmyshoes agai wrongly states, as insects have no bloodstream, they have no blood but Hemolymph and open circulatory system) And turnednitninto its body structures, has a highes nutritional value. No doubt

I say that intentionally pit into intestines undigested gutload as recommended in CF is meaningless and harmful.

The first is called HQFF
The sexond is called GUTLOADING
ny definition not by weird and twisted industry standards

 

[ferretinmyshoes]

Not to go off topic (do we even have a topic?) but i do find it odd that we have flaxseed, sunflower seed, and almonds as part of the dry gut load.

I mean lets be honest here, if the bug cant eat it in the wild, then grinding it up into powder isnt going to make it digestible.

Its almost like we just threw in things that make people healthier if they put it on their own salad.

Personally my "bug food" has just been whatever is listed on the green iguana society food list.

https://web.archive.org/web/20200223033429/http://www.greenigsociety.org/foodchart.htm

At the time the resource was created it was very popular based on a prominent forum member’s gutloading research and recommendations based on some of the vitamins and trace minerals provided by those ingredients. Since then I’ve excluded it from my gutloading resources I give to pet owners. The forum resources could be updated but I don’t think they’re harmful.

 

[ferretinmyshoes]

I say that intentionally pit into intestines undigested gutload as recommended in CF is meaningless and harmful.

Please show me exactly where it says that it is the undigested food in the intestines that is beneficial. In fact I believe it says it is the process of feeding insects...which would imply digestion occurs. Sounds a lot like what you want it to say.

 

[Beman]

The image can always be updated... We intended that there be versions of the images as new advances were made in the understanding of different ingredients.

 

[Kaizen]

I think there is some value in the distinction between feeding and gutloading

If you use both processes of feeding the bugs, then gutloading them with calcium and multivitamins, you’ll likely increase the mineral and vitamin content delivered to the chameleon.

Far be it from this language disciplinarian to give an inch to

I will use the term in peer reviewed publications, no worries, one book and one paper already in the pipeline
Indo NOT accept falsifying the meaning of terms and consider it a very harmful practiceC especially in a commhnity directed on education

Petr,
I meant the term half in jest, and firmly believe that we can stick with ‘gutloading’ despite the wayward semantics. While I appreciate your passion for chameleons, I cannot side with you here. I too have done some serious research into the wild diet of chameleons, and even found a link that suggests spirulina might make it into the wild diet. I have tried, over and over, to play diplomat in some of the threads in which you have been particularly vociferous, but I stand pretty firm with @ferretinmyshoes here.

 

[PetNcs]

Gutloading to me means that a feeder has ingested food for long enough to digest it so the nutrients are present not only in the digestive tract but also in the bloodstream. Which is why there is a time stipulated for gutloading to be successful after offering food to the feeders. Do you disagree with that being the goal?

Thisnis a false Definition created by you here only
I agree itnis good to feed feeders high wuakity food
I disagree to ise them as transport
Means fkr undigested undigestable meaningless or potentially harmful plant
Matter to chameleons witb the hope it will be digested by them

 

[PetNcs]

Please show me exactly where it says that it is the undigested food in the intestines that is beneficial. In fact I believe it says it is the process of feeding insects...which would imply digestion occurs. Sounds a lot like what you want it to say.

Please show me exactly where it says that it is the undigested food in the intestines that is beneficial. In fact I believe it says it is the process of feeding insects...which would imply digestion occurs. Sounds a lot like what you want it to say.

Yoj argument with yiur own partly wrong definitions

 

[PetNcs]

I'm okay with the meaningless part but where is your scientific evidence of it being harmful?

I explaimed repeatedly that there is no exact research on it
And I explained the application of rhe the ethical principle In dubio abstine
I say ALWAYS “potentially harmful”
And I gave three more or less valid examples

 

[kinyonga]

Gutloading...
"Gut loading is the term used for the provision of a special diet to insects, shortly before the insects will be consumed. When this diet, which contains high levels of the desired nutrient(s), is consumed by the insect it will be present in the gut, thereby increasing the insectivore’s nutrient intake when the insect is consumed. Due to the nature of gut loading, it is suitable for almost all nutrients as long as the diet is palatable to the insect and the diet can contain sufficient quantities of the desired nutrient(s) (Hunt-Coslik et al., 2009)."...
https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/veterinary-science-and-veterinary-medicine/gut-loading

"Gut loading is the process by which an animal's prey is raised and fed nutritious foods with the intention of passing those nutrients to the animal for which the prey is intended"...
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gut_loading

 

[PetNcs]

Far be it from this language disciplinarian to give an inch to

Petr,
I meant the term half in jest, and firmly believe that we can stick with ‘gutloading’ despite the wayward semantics. While I appreciate your passion for chameleons, I cannot side with you here. I too have done some serious research into the wild diet of chameleons, and even found a link that suggests spirulina might make it into the wild diet. I have tried, over and over, to play diplomat in some of the threads in which you have been particularly vociferous, but I stand pretty firm with @ferretinmyshoes here.

So, well done
To aide to someone whomismresponsoble
Formthe old dashion and nit xhanging mayerials and recommemdations here, killing almost all
progress here
I can be just sorry about what impact this have in this less and less resoected resource on the international
Context

I said enough
Whomeanted to listen listened
Who want to side, sides

Again and again, I run against a wall
Here
Once I am rude
Then I am not listened to because of typos
Then I am not kistened to becaue of fereet

I
Am tired of putting my energy here frankly

 

[jamest0o0]

Not to go off topic (do we even have a topic?) but i do find it odd that we have flaxseed, sunflower seed, and almonds as part of the dry gut load.

I mean lets be honest here, if the bug cant eat it in the wild, then grinding it up into powder isnt going to make it digestible.

Its almost like we just threw in things that make people healthier if they put it on their own salad.

Personally my "bug food" has just been whatever is listed on the green iguana society food list.

https://web.archive.org/web/20200223033429/http://www.greenigsociety.org/foodchart.htm

I think it is in line with the idea that a couple people brought up earlier... That while they may not eat flaxseed, they may eat other foods with similar fatty acids, minerals, etc. No idea if this benefits our chameleons, but that's my logic around adding it to the diet of feeders.