Gut loading frenzy

[Gryllidae Per Kcal]

@kinyonga Dusting supplements also get groomed off quickly and my gecko can get iffy about her food and wait a little bit before eating them. A feeder insect can't groom off gut contents so I believe using a proven gutloading diet and dusting together rather than choosing one is very beneficial.

 

[snitz427]

There is a definite "connection" between vitamin D3 and vitamin A but I think it's more of a concern with the supplements than the levels from carotene produced vitamin A and UVB produced vitamin D3....but I've never thought at looking at how UVB affects vitamin A.
I'm going to look though...now that you've forced me to think!

Embarrassingly - I think I am mis-remembering what I've read. I think the article in the other post you shared is what I am recalling, which is UVB and D3, not UVB and A. I try to educate myself on the nutritional value of the feeders, and there is a lot of info out there now that insects are growing in popularity in the western world as food source for humans. I try to keep up, but this stuff is confusing! So I defer to the recommendations and practices of the seasoned vets and try to mimic it as best I can.

 

[kinyonga]

I’m not sure I know what you mean about vitamins have nothing to do with gut contents. While it’s unclear whether what an insect actually has in its gi tract at the time of consumption passes straight on to the consumer, many vitamins are stored in other tissue such as the eyes, the fat, etc. So regardless of what’s in the guts, feeding vitamins to bugs might make a difference. At any rate, calcium is a mineral, and feeding it to bugs can change their ca/p ratio significantly...at least according to many sources including Finke.

Calcium absorption does seem to depend on the amount of D3 available from what I've read/learned but you don't have to worry about the D3 from exposure to the UVB only from supplements from what I understand.

Wether what is in the insects digestive tract helps the chameleon would depend on how far along in the digestive process it is when eaten and wether the chameleon can finish digesting it when it eats the insect. The calcium fed to the insect to increase its levels would have to be able to be digested by the chameleon too.


"Without vitamin D3, ingested calcium would not be accessible to the body"...
"excess dietary calcium by itself may inhibit the absorption of other trace minerals. Too much is still not good"...
http://www.chameleonnews.com/07FebWheelock.html

 

[Gryllidae Per Kcal]

@kinyonga For my leo I use a T5 5.0 Reptisun mounted inside of the enclosure and without a reflector. I supplement with ZooMed’s Repti calcium without D3 and Reptivite with D3 Once a week. It’s nice to meet you all ?.

 

[kinyonga]

@kinyonga Dusting supplements also get groomed off quickly and my gecko can get iffy about her food and wait a little bit before eating them. A feeder insect can't groom off gut contents so I believe using a proven gutloading diet and dusting together rather than choosing one is very beneficial.

When I kept geckos, I provided them a small lid of calcium in their cages at all times and it seems that they took it when they needed it....but of course this doesn't work with chameleons.

 

[kinyonga]

@kinyonga For my leo I use a T5 5.0 Reptisun mounted inside of the enclosure and without a reflector. I supplement with ZooMed’s Repti calcium without D3 and Reptivite with D3 Once a week. It’s nice to meet you all ?.

Good to meet you too.
I kept many species of geckos and my Leo's all lived for about 20 years....so I must have been doing something right.
I used UVB lights on then too...even though people said they didn't need it.

 

[Gryllidae Per Kcal]

When I kept geckos, I provided them a small lid of calcium in their cages at all times and it seems that they took it when they needed it....but of course this doesn't work with chameleons.

I don’t provide a calcium dish

Good to meet you too.
I kept many species of geckos and my Leo's all lived for about 20 years....so I must have been doing something right.
I used UVB lights on then too...even though people said they didn't need it.

The hobby is changing. I used to believe heating pads were the best for nocturnal/crepuscular geckos but now I believe all reptiles should have a DHP or even better a basking lamp.

 

[kinyonga]

Embarrassingly - I think I am mis-remembering what I've read. I think the article in the other post you shared is what I am recalling, which is UVB and D3, not UVB and A. I try to educate myself on the nutritional value of the feeders, and there is a lot of info out there now that insects are growing in popularity in the western world as food source for humans. I try to keep up, but this stuff is confusing! So I defer to the recommendations and practices of the seasoned vets and try to mimic it as best I can.

It made me want to know about UVB and vitamin A anyway...and now I'm wondering about other vitamins too!
No wonder I can't sleep at night!

 

[Gryllidae Per Kcal]

@ferretinmyshoes Have you read this study? It's one that I like referring to when I'm figuring out what other diets I could use for maintenance. https://www.freepatentsonline.com/y2014/0030375.html

 

[ferretinmyshoes]

@ferretinmyshoes Have you read this study? It's one that I like referring to when I'm figuring out what other diets I could use for maintenance. https://www.freepatentsonline.com/y2014/0030375.html

That particular article refers to fatty acid absorption and that is something that has very few studies in reptiles in general and no available data in chameleons that I’m aware of so I have difficulty with knowing how to implement the information offered. There is still simply so much that we do not know.

I would like to read through the other link you referenced but it’s a hefty 186 pages so that will have to be later this evening.

 

[Gryllidae Per Kcal]

That particular article refers to fatty acid absorption and that is something that has very few studies in reptiles in general and no available data in chameleons that I’m aware of so I have difficulty with knowing how to implement the information offered. There is still simply so much that we do not know.

I would like to read through the other link you referenced but it’s a hefty 186 pages so that will have to be later this evening.

The study is a combination of different animals. Toads then big cats lol. Idk why the big cat studies are included.

 

[Gryllidae Per Kcal]

It made me want to know about UVB and vitamin A anyway...and now I'm wondering about other vitamins too!
No wonder I can't sleep at night!

This talk of vitamin A effecting vitamin D synthesis is making me wonder if I should switch my maintenance diet to Mazuri Ramphastid hand feeding formula for its lower vitamin A levels but higher vitamin D. https://pims.purinamills.com/BusinessLink/media/Mazuri/ProductSheet/5TWY.pdf?ext=.pdf

 

[kinyonga]

The vitamin A and D just need to be in balance however you do it.

 

[Gryllidae Per Kcal]

The vitamin A and D just need to be in balance however you do it.

What would vitamin A and D being in balance look like if I were to look at a nutrient label?

 

[Kaizen]

What would vitamin A and D being in balance look like if I were to look at a nutrient label?

nobody knows! If you look at the labels of various commercial gutload the ratio is...um...d:a 10:1, I think.

 

[Beman]

Ok very long comment I’m sorry. I want to study exotic animal nutrition in college. It wasn’t just the gutloading picture on the forum but also some threads that made me really really want to post scientific evidence on gutloading diets. I used to follow the gutloading guidelines from this forum but then I began reading studies on the subject and found that there could be improvement on the gutloading advice. Currently I gutload dubia roaches, crickets, mealworms, superworms, and hornworms. I want to add other feeders such as Cuban roaches, spike maggots, and lesser mealworms which all may have different gutloading diets that they prefer.

I use a maintenance diet then a gutloading diet. The maintenance diet is for increasing vitamins A,D,and E while the gutloading diet is for calcium. I use Mazuri timothy based guinea pig diet mixed with some D- alpha tocopheryl for maintenance. I use this as a substrate for the meal/superworms and for the dubia roaches and crickets I mix in a little bit of bee pollen for palatability. Carrots, sweet potatoes, and wet paper towels are used for moisture and helping with creating a strong feeder body. I then put a few insects into a separate bin for gutloading, I like to use Mazuri Better Bug for the crickets, roaches, and superworms. Then for the hornworms I like to use Repashy Superload in gel form. No fresh produce is served to the feeders in the gutloading phase as I believe it is said in one of the many gutloading studies that the feeders will eat this instead of the gutload.

This is all for a leopard gecko. Just one reptile ?. and a tarantula.

I think gutloading is a fun subject to talk about and maybe the word criticize is too strong of a word lol. I guess provide my opinion on the subject would be a better way to explain why I wanted to join. I’m so sorry if I’m making any of you uncomfortable with me coming here without a chameleon just to talk about one but important subject. I could perhaps learn more about this and other subjects through being on this forum though.

Thank you. Your original post just took me quite off guard. Enjoy the convo. We seemed to have slid down the rabbit hole of in's and out's in this thread.

Per the image you mentioned. This is an intro image. Designed for newbie keepers to be able to offer a variety of fresh items rather then just tossing a potato in. So while it is not expansive there is a reason for that. With chameleon keeping there are many many basics that must be understood and implemented to have a healthy animal. So we touch upon things like gutloading and some of our members have blogs with deeper explanation and thoughts behind it. And then we have threads where just about every angle gets covered as in this one.

Welcome to the forum.

 

[Gryllidae Per Kcal]

nobody knows! If you look at the labels of various commercial gutload the ratio is...um...d:a 10:1, I think.

Very interesting, here’s the full nutritional analysis of the guinea pig diet that I use by the way. Measuring nutrient ratios and converting nutritional units aren’t my strong suits but I try?. https://pims.purinamills.com/BusinessLink/media/Mazuri/ProductSheet/5E6A.pdf?ext=.pdf

 

[mujino]

Ok very long comment I’m sorry. I want to study exotic animal nutrition in college. It wasn’t just the gutloading picture on the forum but also some threads that made me really really want to post scientific evidence on gutloading diets. I used to follow the gutloading guidelines from this forum but then I began reading studies on the subject and found that there could be improvement on the gutloading advice. Currently I gutload dubia roaches, crickets, mealworms, superworms, and hornworms. I want to add other feeders such as Cuban roaches, spike maggots, and lesser mealworms which all may have different gutloading diets that they prefer.

I use a maintenance diet then a gutloading diet. The maintenance diet is for increasing vitamins A,D,and E while the gutloading diet is for calcium. I use Mazuri timothy based guinea pig diet mixed with some D- alpha tocopheryl for maintenance. I use this as a substrate for the meal/superworms and for the dubia roaches and crickets I mix in a little bit of bee pollen for palatability. Carrots, sweet potatoes, and wet paper towels are used for moisture and helping with creating a strong feeder body. I then put a few insects into a separate bin for gutloading, I like to use Mazuri Better Bug for the crickets, roaches, and superworms. Then for the hornworms I like to use Repashy Superload in gel form. No fresh produce is served to the feeders in the gutloading phase as I believe it is said in one of the many gutloading studies that the feeders will eat this instead of the gutload.

This is all for a leopard gecko. Just one reptile ?. and a tarantula.

I think gutloading is a fun subject to talk about and maybe the word criticize is too strong of a word lol. I guess provide my opinion on the subject would be a better way to explain why I wanted to join. I’m so sorry if I’m making any of you uncomfortable with me coming here without a chameleon just to talk about one but important subject. I could perhaps learn more about this and other subjects through being on this forum though.

Pics of leopard gecko and you’re forgiven

 

[Gryllidae Per Kcal]

Pics of leopard gecko and you’re forgiven

 

[mujino]

Nice! How old is s/he?