Gryllidae Per Kcal
Established Member
She’s about 5 years old ?
Gut loading frenzy
- Thread starter PetNcs
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Gryllidae Per Kcal
Established Member
@ferretinmyshoes
This is from Jaimee Alsing. She’s a buddy that I like to discuss gutloading nutrition with and she made this chart to help show the results of that long study that I posted.
This is from Jaimee Alsing. She’s a buddy that I like to discuss gutloading nutrition with and she made this chart to help show the results of that long study that I posted.
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Mrjamwin
Chameleon Enthusiast
@Gryllidae Per Kcal if you don't mind for the sake of this discussion. Can you give me your definition of what gut loading is? Thank you.
Gryllidae Per Kcal
Established Member
Sure!
To me gut loading is force feeding a diet that has been proven to increase calcium and/or vitamin levels in feeder insects for 24-48 hours before being fed to the reptile. I see diets like Repashy Superload, Mazuri Better Bug, T- Rex Calcium Plus (vitamins), and T- Rex Cricket Diet Dust (calcium) as gutloading diets. Repashy Bug Burger, Cricket Crack, Arcadia Insect Fuel etc. are more of a maintenance diet to help keep the feeders alive and healthy before they're fed the gut loading diet.
Mrjamwin
Chameleon Enthusiast
This is a general question for anyone. Why wouldn't we do this simultaneously? Why not feed our feeders the things that they need and that the Chams need all at once?
Gryllidae Per Kcal
Established Member
Perhaps it's because of how the feeder insects process and deliver nutrients to the insectivore. If I'm reading the studies correctly, calcium will be delivered to the reptile through their gut while vitamins will be absorbed by the feeder insect's body over time.
Mrjamwin
Chameleon Enthusiast
This is a little facetious I know but if say I eat my steak along with all my vegetables such as carrots and green beans and some collard greens and then I drank a big glass of milk and this is what I eat every day. Then Godzilla comes along and eats me. Isn't he getting all the nutrients and calcium from me in one feeding? 
Thatwizard420
Chameleon Enthusiast
well if godzilla is strictly a carnivore, wouldn't the veggies cause issues for him?This is a little facetious I know but if say I eat my steak along with all my vegetables such as carrots and green beans and some collard greens and then I drank a big glass of milk and this is what I eat every day. Then Godzilla comes along and eats me. Isn't he getting all the nutrients and calcium from me in one feeding?
Gryllidae Per Kcal
Established Member
I don't think so. To Godzilla you're a tiny human, eating teeny weeny food with teeny weeny nutrients for his large body. Your body digest and uses up all of the mini nutrients from the food that's already not so nutritious for Godzilla's humungous body. In order for the food that you eat to pass on a noticeable amount of nutrients to Godzilla you would need to eat a downright dangerous amount of vitamins and minerals. This is exactly what's happening when I feed the crickets Mazuri Better Bug. I don't want to feed them Better Bug for more than 72 hours because the calcium will begin to kill them off due to calcium overdose ( and it's found that palatability may cause reduction in calcium after 48 hours). The maintenance diet that I give the feeders contains 34,000 IU/kg of vitamin A, but there's no way the feeder insects are eating a kg of food a month, let alone a week. ( weirdly enough, feeder insects seem to not be negatively effected by high vitamin levels like they are by high calcium levelsThis is a little facetious I know but if say I eat my steak along with all my vegetables such as carrots and green beans and some collard greens and then I drank a big glass of milk and this is what I eat every day. Then Godzilla comes along and eats me. Isn't he getting all the nutrients and calcium from me in one feeding?
)So if Godzilla wanted to turn you into a tiny power food rich in vitamins, he would need to feed you food that's so concentrated in vitamins that it alters the very nutrient make up of your flesh if that makes sense.
Gryllidae Per Kcal
Established Member
Nope, tripe ( the stomach of grazing mammals) are very beneficial to predators like wolves, dogs, and big cats. It would be a great source of nutrition for Godzilla, in the right sized prey animal that is
Lennoncham
Chameleon Enthusiast
this is a thing?
Gryllidae Per Kcal
Established Member
Yes, but I think I would need to go through lots of basic veterinary classes before I can begin to study nutrition as a specialty and even before I can study exotics.
Lennoncham
Chameleon Enthusiast
I wasn’t aware there was courses specifically for exotics? I thought you had to do a wildlife course in order to study exotics? Or would it be part of a zoology course?
Gryllidae Per Kcal
Established Member
?I guess so, I'm not too educated on the names of majors and degrees.
CasqueAbove
Chameleon Enthusiast
This likely works like a normal degree. 2years general study (Associates)
2-4 generally focused to a specific training or knowledge base. (Bachelors)
4-6 years. More in detail about specific topics within a field.(Masters)
6-8 Now it gets fun! In order to get your doctorate you need to do a research study that has not been done before. This is where those kind of very specific things will be researched, like nutrition in chameleons.
Not a doctor, lol so correct me if I am wrong. I think this is pretty close.
Gryllidae Per Kcal
Established Member
@Mrjamwin Table A of this study shows a good example that what you feed the insect isn’t necessarily what you’re going to feed the reptile.
Table B (Beta carotene) however is confusing ?
https://www.freepatentsonline.com/y2014/0030375.html
Table B (Beta carotene) however is confusing ?
https://www.freepatentsonline.com/y2014/0030375.html
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Mrjamwin
Chameleon Enthusiast
I'll have to wait to read this until I get home.
You said..."To Godzilla you're a tiny human, eating teeny weeny food with teeny weeny nutrients for his large body" and "you would need to eat a downright dangerous amount of vitamins and minerals"...but like the chameleon eats lots of insects with teeny food in it Godzilla would need to eat lots of teeny humans thus providing lots of nutrients... not dangerous amounts still stands..
I said before..."Whether what is in the insects digestive tract helps the chameleon would depend on how far along in the digestive process it is when eaten and whether the chameleon can finish digesting it when it eats the insect. The calcium fed to the insect to increase its levels would have to be able to be digested by the chameleon"...this still stands IMHO.
Also, overdosing the insects with calcium doesn't mean that the chameleon uses it. That still depends on whether the chameleon can digest it. Also the calcium used by the chameleon... if it can digest/use ... depends on the amount of D3 the chameleon has in its system so that the calcium can be absorbed.
I said before..."Whether what is in the insects digestive tract helps the chameleon would depend on how far along in the digestive process it is when eaten and whether the chameleon can finish digesting it when it eats the insect. The calcium fed to the insect to increase its levels would have to be able to be digested by the chameleon"...this still stands IMHO.
Also, overdosing the insects with calcium doesn't mean that the chameleon uses it. That still depends on whether the chameleon can digest it. Also the calcium used by the chameleon... if it can digest/use ... depends on the amount of D3 the chameleon has in its system so that the calcium can be absorbed.
Gryllidae Per Kcal
Established Member
What is it about the calcium in the gut load that can't be used by the chameleon compared to the calcium dusted on the feeders?
I have researched about gut loading diets altering the calcium to phosphorus ratio to 1:1 in crickets but I never thought about whether or not the chameleon uses it. I just assumed that the reptile digested the feeder in whatever way the gutload altered its nutrient make up because why not? I'll have to see if I can find a study on this.
And the amount of vitamins you want to gut load with could depend on how many feeders you give the reptile but how much does the chameleon require? that's another question that I hope nutritionist can answer in future studies.
With calcium however, I would think I would want all of the crickets combined to get up to a 1:1 calcium to phosphorus ratio before dusting. I would also think that just as long as I don't wait too long after 48 hours of gut loading there would still be quite a bit of beneficial amount of calcium going to the insectivore.
