Gut loading frenzy

[Gryllidae Per Kcal]

@kinyonga The only study I can find where they test the effect of what the cricket eats on a herptile's health is the study I posted on page 13 of this thread.

" Glutathione peroxidase activity (intra- and inter-assay CV = 2.0 and 86.0%, respectively) was highest for both species consuming VB at 83.8 and 79.4 nmol/min/mL for AS (P = 0.008) and PRC (P = 0.036) toads, respectively compared with the lowest values for both species when consuming BB (41.9 and 48.7 nmol/min/mL, respectively). The response was mixed for toads consuming the Rephasy treatment as GPx activity was numerically the second highest (70.7 nmol/min/mL) in AS toads, but not different from other treatments. In contrast, PRC toads fed Repashy had the second lowest GPx activity (51.7 nmol/min/mL) and was lower (P = 0.036) than those consuming VB (79.4 nmol/min/mL)"
( Iske 56-57).

 

[kinyonga]

@Mrjamwin said.."Why not feed our feeders the things that they need and that the Chams need all at once?"... I've always looked at it like why not feed the insect what it needs to be healthy and be the best it can be and then dust with whatever the chameleon needs in addition to,that because we don't feed the chameleon the insects they eat in the wild. Just my opinion.

@Gryllidae Per Kcal that might help answer your questions too..

 

[RPCV]

Dose is the poison.

 

[kinyonga]

Calcium article...
http://www.chameleonnews.com/02MayDonoghue.html

 

[kinyonga]

"Calcium to phosphorus ratio- should be 2:1"...
http://www.chameleonnews.com/07FebWheelock.html

 

[kinyonga]

http://www.uvma.org/chameleon/vitamind3.htm

 

[kinyonga]

Calcium absorption...
"As calcium concentration in supplements decreases, the percentage absorbed tends to increase"...
http://www.chameleonnews.com/03JanDonoghue.html

 

[Gryllidae Per Kcal]

"Calcium to phosphorus ratio- should be 2:1"...
http://www.chameleonnews.com/07FebWheelock.html

From all of the gut loading studies I've read, no fresh produce mixture has been able to correct the calcium to phosphorus ratio in feeder insects. Has there been a homemade recipe that was compared to gut loading diets like Repashy, Mazuri, and T-Rex through a nutritional analysis of the feeders that ate it?

 

[kinyonga]

I don't know if there's been a study for that. I'm not a fan of commercial feeds or gutloaded so I've never bothered to research them much.

You said..."no fresh produce mixture has been able to correct the calcium to phosphorus ratio in feeder insects"...which is why I dust with a phos free calcium powder lightly at all feedings.

 

[ferretinmyshoes]

There are almost no studies using fresh produce that I can find unfortunately. As mentioned above, the goal for nutrition is at least 2:1 calcium to phosphorus and a lot of gutloading studied struggle to get to 1:1, which is why dusting is still recommended. And that is also why the produce recommended to be used as staples are thing like collard greens (10:1), mustard greens (3:1), and turnip greens (5:1). By exceeding the goal ratio with the understanding that that ratio of these foods is offset by the inverse ratio of the feeder itself (crickets are 0:4) we try to maximize effect. I wish there was a study looking at these greens specifically for gutloading.

 

[Gryllidae Per Kcal]

I don't know if there's been a study for that. I'm not a fan of commercial feeds or gutloaded so I've never bothered to research them much.

You said..."no fresh produce mixture has been able to correct the calcium to phosphorus ratio in feeder insects"...which is why I dust with a phos free calcium powder lightly at all feedings.

There are almost no studies using fresh produce that I can find unfortunately. As mentioned above, the goal for nutrition is at least 2:1 calcium to phosphorus and a lot of gutloading studied struggle to get to 1:1, which is why dusting is still recommended. And that is also why the produce recommended to be used as staples are thing like collard greens (10:1), mustard greens (3:1), and turnip greens (5:1). By exceeding the goal ratio with the understanding that that ratio of these foods is offset by the inverse ratio of the feeder itself (crickets are 0:4) we try to maximize effect. I wish there was a study looking at these greens specifically for gutloading.

I'm still wondering how the calcium to phosphorus ratios in fresh greens compare to 8% calcium in a dry powdered diet.

If you don't mind me asking,
if a fresh produce gutload were to be tested against Mazuri Better Bug and Repashy Superload how would you want them served? Would they be minced ,served whole, or in dry powder form? What and how many ingredients?

 

[Lennoncham]

I'm still wondering how the calcium to phosphorus ratios in fresh greens compare to 8% calcium in a dry powdered diet.

If you don't mind me asking,
if a fresh produce gutload were to be tested against Mazuri Better Bug and Repashy Superload how would you want them served? Would they be minced ,served whole, or in dry powder form? What and how many ingredients?

I would assume it would depend on the process they are using to dry the produce. Most vegetables need to be blanched before being dehydrated to kill off the enzymes that degrade the quality of the nutrients over time.

when dehydrated they also lose most of their vitamin c and beta carotene content. This can be minimized by dehydrating at lower temperatures but there will still be some loss.

 

[kinyonga]

I'm never going to compare/test fresh produce to a powdered commercial product. I have always used fresh veggies, greens and a small bit of fruit, washed and cut into pieces. I want the produce to be fresh and not altered in any way....just like insects eat greens, etc in the wild.

 

[Gryllidae Per Kcal]

For me fresh produce is important for making strong and healthy feeders before I gutload them. I probably should consider serving more than sweet potatoes and carrots alongside their grounded up feed during maintenance.

 

[Motherlode Chameleon]

I found this important thread late. My five dollars worth to summarize this good amount of reading. I am not going to address the tangles. However the old saying "you are what you eat" hold true for our feeder insects and chameleons. Meaning take care of what you feed your insect colonies. Then take extra care what you feed your insect colonies, with regards to chameleon mineral and nutrient requirements, when feeding your insects 72 hours before feeding your feeder insects to your chameleons. I think that is a recipe most can understand.

Best Regards
Jeremy A. Rich

 

[Kaizen]

I found this important thread late. My five dollars worth to summarize this good amount of reading. I am not going to address the tangles. However the old saying "you are what you eat" hold true for our feeder insects and chameleons. Meaning take care of what you feed your insect colonies. Then take extra care what you feed your insect colonies, with regards to chameleon mineral and nutrient requirements, when feeding your insects 72 hours before feeding your feeder insects to your chameleons. I think that is a recipe most can understand.

Best Regards
Jeremy A. Rich

Thanks, J!

 

[Gryllidae Per Kcal]

I've decided to add more fresh produce to serve to my feeders during their maintenance, using ingredients from the great and good vegetable list (Mustard greens, sweet potato, squash, carrots, apple). I’m going to try out a combination of raising my feeders on a high vitamin commercial diet mixed with some bee pollen and with a chopped vegetable mix, then gutload with MBB or RSL for 48 hours. Crickets will only be bought as pinheads so then they’re raised on the maintenance diet then I’ll attempt to gutload them before they reach the instar where they eat little to no food.

 

[Kaizen]

A quasi-scientific experiment...me likes!

 

[Gryllidae Per Kcal]

A quasi-scientific experiment...me likes!

I mean why not combine all gutloading methods together in phases instead of try to figure which single method I want to do? It’s more fun this way too. ?

Still trying to figure out if I want to switch to a high vitamin D feed or stick with what I currently use though ?

 

[Kaizen]

I mean why not combine all gutloading methods together in phases instead of try to figure which single method I want to do? It’s more fun this way too. ?

Still trying to figure out if I want to switch to a high vitamin D feed or stick with what I currently use though ?

And pondering those types of questions will always benefit you!!! Keep questioning; keep wondering; keep critical of everything...even yourself.