Gut loading frenzy

[Motherlode Chameleon]

Thanks, J!

Not a problem! I think educating and making things appear clear to others is a virtue. That is a path to enlightenment.

Best Regards
Jeremy A. Rich

 

[kinyonga]

@Gryllidae Per Kcal said..."Still trying to figure out if I want to switch to a high vitamin D feed or stick with what I currently use though"...why would you want to use a high D3 feed when D3 from supplements or food can build up in the system and lead to health issues while D3 from sxposure to UVB shouldn't as long as the chameleon can move in and out of it at will?

 

[Gryllidae Per Kcal]

@Gryllidae Per Kcal said..."Still trying to figure out if I want to switch to a high vitamin D feed or stick with what I currently use though"...why would you want to use a high D3 feed when D3 from supplements or food can build up in the system and lead to health issues while D3 from sxposure to UVB shouldn't as long as the chameleon can move in and out of it at will?

I don’t own a chameleon I just own a gecko and a tarantula. I think overdose from gutloading is very difficult to achieve. I also only feed my gecko 2 medium sized feeders 2 or 3 times a week.

I just saw the discussion on how vitamin A effects vitamin D3 absorption so I’ve been considering having a feed higher in vitamin D levels but lower in vitamin A.

 

[Mrjamwin]

I don’t own a chameleon I just own a gecko and a tarantula. I think overdose from gutloading is very difficult to achieve. I also only feed my gecko 2 medium sized feeders 2 or 3 times a week.

I just saw the discussion on how vitamin A effects vitamin D3 absorption so I’ve been considering having a feed higher in vitamin D levels but lower in vitamin A.

? Wh.. wh... What?!

 

[kinyonga]

It doesn't matter if it's a chameleon or a gecko...I still wouldn't feed a high D3 diet to it because D3 from supplements and such will build up in the system. The idea is to feed some D3 from supplements and the rest should be produced by exposure to the UVB. When an animal is nocturnal or comes out only in the evening the it would likely get its D3 from what it eats....but why would that be high? It should mimic what it would get in the wild IMHO.
I can't tell you about tarantulas.

Also...vitamin A needs to be in balance with the D3. If both are too high then that causes issues too.

"Excess Vitamin D actually causes ABSORPTION of bone. It actually mimics hyperparathyroidism. 3. Vitamin D causes calcification of bone. Excess Vitamin D causes inappropriate mineralization of organs such as the kidney or soft tissue. Excess Vit D3 and Calcium has been implicated in mineralization of large blood vessels, causing cardiac disease"...

"My opinion (for what its worth) is preformed vitamin A is a medication used to treat severe cases of hypovitaminosis A and symptoms suggestive of such. It is too dangerous to use as a supplement. I use it carefully to elevate vitamin A levels. I sometimes use it to treat vitamin D toxicosis. I also use it when there is liver dysfunction. Bile salts are required for the uptake of retinol into the liver. I also use vitamin D to treat vitamin A toxicosis (along with vitamin E which seems to help).

Chams do not have much opportunity to zap preformed vitamin A in the wild. There is probably some small amount in most insects, especially king mealworms that pass through the liver while eating their way through another chams body (just kidding, I always liked that wives tail). There are so many successful breeders out there who properly gut-load their insects and DO NOT use preformed vitamin A, how can it be considered a good idea to take the risk? If supplementation is needed, the provitamins are a good choice. There is another consideration on which provitamins, but that is too long for this post."...

This site might interest you because it's also a gecko site....but Dr. Lopez is well known in the chameleon world too...
http://www.geckosunlimited.com/comm...ard-gecko-care-sheet-geckos-unlimited-10.html

Another article by a well known chameleon vet...
http://www.chameleonnews.com/07FebWheelock.html

You might be interested in this site too...
http://www.uvguide.co.uk/skintests.htm

One more on leopard geckos and UVB light exposure....
https://www.reptifiles.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/Geckos-and-UVB-paper.pdf

 

[kinyonga]

One more thing you might like to read @Gryllidae Per Kcal ...
https://www.chameleonforums.com/blogs/the-current-state.2432/

 

[Kaizen]

One more thing you might like to read @Gryllidae Per Kcal ...
https://www.chameleonforums.com/blogs/the-current-state.2432/

Thanks, K!

 

[Gryllidae Per Kcal]

@kinyonga I still don’t believe that 3,000-4,000 IU/kg is enough to cause an overdose through the feeders eating it. I believe I would have to go absolutely mad with the vitamin levels I feed to the feeders in order for an overdose to be of concern.

I’m also not so concerned about gout as long as I make sure my gecko is well hydrated and I provide a variety of feeders besides dubia roaches.

 

[ferretinmyshoes]

@kinyonga I still don’t believe that 3,000-4,000 IU/kg is enough to cause an overdose through the feeders eating it. I believe I would have to go absolutely mad with the vitamin levels I feed to the feeders in order for an overdose to be of concern.

What makes you believe that?

 

[Gryllidae Per Kcal]

What makes you believe that?

Honestly, an educated guess based off of the studies I’ve read.

I still hold the belief that what’s fed to the feeder isn’t necessarily passed onto the reptile. If I ever suspect a vitamin overdose in my gecko my attention would go to my supplementing schedule.

Another gut loading study I like to read...


https://patents.google.com/patent/US9480278B2/en

 

[ferretinmyshoes]

Honestly, an educated guess based off of the studies I’ve read.

I still hold the belief that what’s fed to the feeder isn’t necessarily passed onto the reptile. If I ever suspect a vitamin overdose in my gecko my attention would go to my supplementing schedule.

Another gut loading study I like to read...


https://patents.google.com/patent/US9480278B2/en

But that’s my point. The metabolism of reptiles is very different from that of mammals so you can’t just extrapolate. You need more data to support your theory. Otherwise it’s just conjecture There have been studies that document vitamin D toxicosis on green iguanas.

 

[Gryllidae Per Kcal]

But that’s my point. The metabolism of reptiles is very different from that of mammals so you can’t just extrapolate. You need more data to support your theory. Otherwise it’s just conjecture There have been studies that document vitamin D toxicosis on green iguanas.

I’m finding that there’s little studies on increasing vitamin D in feeders through their food. There are some where vitamin D is increased through chicken starter feed but that’s it ?.

 

[Gryllidae Per Kcal]

But that’s my point. The metabolism of reptiles is very different from that of mammals so you can’t just extrapolate. You need more data to support your theory. Otherwise it’s just conjecture There have been studies that document vitamin D toxicosis on green iguanas.

Just curious, what supplementing schedule did the iguanas have? What supplementing schedule do iguana owners like to use?

 

[ferretinmyshoes]

Just curious, what supplementing schedule did the iguanas have? What supplementing schedule do iguana owners like to use?

I would like to offer that you to find papers to support your hypothesis rather than placing the burden of proof on me to prove your point for you. Vitamin D toxicosis has been examined in several species of reptiles, it doesn’t have to be a gutloading related study.

 

[Gryllidae Per Kcal]

I would like to offer that you to find papers to support your hypothesis rather than placing the burden of proof on me to prove your point for you. Vitamin D toxicosis has been examined in several species of reptiles, it doesn’t have to be a gutloading related study.

Oh no no no I’m sorry I didn’t know I was coming off that way ?.

 

[ferretinmyshoes]

Oh no no no I’m sorry I didn’t know I was coming off that way ?.

It’s okay, if you make a claim you should be able to back it up. It’s exhausting doing the legwork sometimes but necessary.

 

[Garden_of_Eden]

Dam who needs to watch the view when you can just read the CF

I'm new to this forum, but I got to say you all are a very passionate bunch.

 

[Ares05]

I'm new to this forum, but I got to say you all are a very passionate bunch.

That is one way to put it....