Gutload and Vitamin A

[Chameleon Company]

You said..."There seems to be a continuing theme with some that, if they do not experience the problem themselves, then it isn't a credible issue with others"...I don't think I've ever said its not possible....but I have questioned why mine don't show any issues that could be the result a vitamin A deficiency.

That may be a topic others want to pursue elsewhere, but it does nothing for those that have had problems, have them now, or anticipate having them. It is not only "possible", but well documented as a recurring problem with many hobbyists.

You said..."there is much to be said for being pro-active in one's approach rather than try to fix a negative condition once it occurs"...but its also important IMHO not to fix what ain't broken.

If yours "ain't broken", and haven't been broken, then that's great ! More and more folks, to include the best in the business, acknowledge that this is a valid issue. In the work done by Ferguson, Stahl, Tenant, and others, they were able to show a marked improvement between those which were supplemented with pre-formed A, and those that were not. Is not basic calcium and vitamin dusting a pro-active approach to something that "ain't broke" ? Are you suggesting we wait until there are symptoms of mineral and vitamin deficiency ? Of course not ! But it makes the point.

You said..."We also know it wreaks havoc that we often do not see"...like what?

How about the linings of the lungs, arteries, intestines, etc being compromised ? How about evidence suggesting an emerging role in healthy offspring production ?

You said..."FYI, we have seen it occur with and without D3 supplementation in pardalis"...and no D3 in what was fed to them?

With no additional D3 supplementation. Sheeesh.

You said..."Put another way, what solution or cure have you been able to pass on to others that they could then replicate long-term in statistically significant quantity ? I do not mean that as a slight, just an attempt to define remedies that avoid the problem."...if I don't have any apparent signs of vitamin A deficiency and people keep their chameleons the same way would that not mean that there chameleons shouldn't have vitamin A issues either?

That's a leap, and that's the point. Its not about your animals not having problems, its about what you can pass on to others so that they don't have problems, or that solve problems they now have. We have countless examples of situations that are broken. It is one thing to preach about how you think the problem can be avoided with different gut-loads, etc. But "this is what I do and I don't have a problem" has yet to establish itself as a solution until you can take what you do, teach it to another, and then eliminate the occurance of their problem. What has been shown by others is that direct supplementation with vitamin A can avoid the problem. Multi-generational evidence of this from folks who are well-qualified is on the record.

You said..."If I die, and reincarnate as a pet chameleon, can I be yours"...Hmmm...I only give them bread and water and let them watch TV if they behave properly. (evil grin)

ESPN ?

 

[sandrachameleon]

its also important IMHO not to fix what ain't broken.

Agreed! so true!

....but I have questioned why mine don't show any issues that could be the result a vitamin A deficiency. I also don't understand why pardalis eggs contain beta carotene if they can't convert it. (http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/j...stract...Ellen S. Dierenfeld 1 *, Edward B. Norkus 2, Kathryn Carroll 1 3, Gary W. Ferguson 4).

Could you repost this link? Its not working for me, and I think this would be good to read.

What has been shown by others is that direct supplementation with vitamin A can avoid the problem.

We all seem to agree on the essentials, that chameleons use Vitamin A (Im sure most creatures do). Its just that some seem fixated on one method of getting it to them (supplementation with preformed vitmain A), while I think (personal opinion alert!) there's more than one option here.

I prefer that which is most natural, meaning not supplements. Happily, that works for me. And it works for those people I remain in contact with to whom I have sold babies.

I conceed that the easier method may be use of supplements. Im not saying Jim or others are lazy in their gutloading, or necessarily offering too few prey choices (I have no idea what Jim gutloads with, if anything, or what prey choices his chameleons are offered, as I've not heard him ever say).

If there is a deficiency problem, the fastest solution is likely direct and immediate supplementation with the deficient nutrient, and those that work with it.

But would it not be better to avoid that deficiency from the start? You seem to feel quite strongly that one must do that with supplementation, and I suggest one could do also that with good gutloading practises and a variety of feeder insects. As I have done. I submit that what has been shown by me is that good care and attention to gutloading may be what avoids our chameleons having the problem in the first place, thus negating the need for supplementation.

 

[kinyonga]

sandrachameleon...here's the link you asked me to repost...hope it works this time...
http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/95016303/abstract

Look at this thread in the post by Fabian (mermontanus) involving Gary Ferguson...its the concerning the same article...
https://www.chameleonforums.com/carrots-vit-23572/index2.html
"Measurable concentrations of retinol at all stages of egg development in the chameleons suggests effective conversion from carotenoid precursors, with concentrations similar to those measured in other lizard eggs."

Jim said..."Are you suggesting we wait until there are symptoms of mineral and vitamin deficiency ? Of course not !"...of course not...I was saying that since I don't seem to have the problem, perhaps keeping them the way I do will avoid the problem/the symptoms wouldn't occur in the first place. As sandrchameleon said..."would it not be better to avoid that deficiency from the start?"

Jim said..."ESPN?"...Entertainment and Sports Programming Network????

Jim said..."How about the linings of the lungs, arteries, intestines, etc being compromised ? How about evidence suggesting an emerging role in healthy offspring production ?"...thanks, gives me something to look into.

 

[jojackson]

Could you repost this link? Its not working for me, and I think this would be good to read.

I posted an abstract of it earlier...

http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/95016303/abstract

Research Article
Carotenoids, vitamin A, and vitamin E concentrations during egg development in panther chameleons (Furcifer pardalis)
Ellen S. Dierenfeld 1 *, Edward B. Norkus 2, Kathryn Carroll 1 3, Gary W. Ferguson 4
1Department of Wildlife Nutrition, Wildlife Conservation Society, Bronx, New York
2Our Lady of Mercy Medical Center, Bronx, New York
3Department of Biology, Manhattan College/College of Mount Saint Vincent, Riverdale, New York
4Department of Biology, Texas Christian University, Fort Worth, Texas

email: Ellen S. Dierenfeld ([email protected])

*Correspondence to Ellen S. Dierenfeld, Dept. of Wildlife Nutrition, Wildlife Conservation Society, 2300 Southern Blvd., Bronx, NY 10460

Keywords
nutrition • fat-soluble vitamins • lizards • embryogenesis


Abstract
Insects are known to be poor sources of preformed vitamin A, leading to the speculation that insectivorous species, including reptiles, may be able to convert carotenoid precursors to meet dietary requirements for this nutrient. This study was conducted to indirectly evaluate carotenoid and vitamin A metabolism in the panther chameleon (Furcifer pardalis). Eggs were obtained from females in Madagascar that were yolked either early or later in the breeding season, and carotenoid (- and -carotene, cryptoxanthin, lutein/zeaxanthin, and lycopene), vitamin A, and vitamin E concentrations were measured in egg contents in early, middle, or late embryonic development. An overall trend of decreased nutrient concentration as eggs matured (from egg period 1 (yolks) to egg period 3 (embryos)) was seen within both clutch groups. The season of clutch deposition was a significant influence on egg weight, -carotene, and lutein/zeaxanthin concentrations, but on no other nutrients. Chameleon yolks contained considerably higher levels of carotenoids than levels previously reported from two viviparous lizard species, and -carotene concentrations were of the same magnitude as reported in grazing tortoises. -Carotene and -cryptoxanthin were the predominant carotenoids in yolk and embryos, comprising about 95% of total carotenoids detected. Measurable concentrations of retinol at all stages of egg development in the chameleons suggests effective conversion from carotenoid precursors, with concentrations similar to those measured in other lizard eggs. Information from eggs obtained in native habitats may provide baseline data on nutrient interactions to improve and optimize captive dietary management; preliminary data suggest that micronutrient environments may vary over the protracted breeding season, with possible implications for embryo health and survival. Zoo Biol 21:295-303, 2002. © 2002 Wiley-Liss, Inc.



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[sandrachameleon]

Thanks! Link works.

 

[jojackson]

My earlier link failed, I clicked it and it said something about cookies??? I thought id copy it JIC

 

[bcornellier]

Hello all! I didn't expect that my neophyte, uninformed original question would create such a passionate thread and so much heated discussions! I'm quite new on this forum, but this is all very interesting.

Now, in a nutshell, what I should do if I want to find a middle ground between the main positions offered here?

Sandrachameleon: you suggest gutloading my feeders with bird food (not too often) containing preformed vitamin A. By that you mean food for pet birds that you get in local pet stores, am I right? I am also trying to give a variety of feeder insect. But since I live in the city (Montreal), I do not have access to much wild caught insects (especially insects that wouldn't be feeding in pollution and toxicity). So I have to rely on what i can buy: crickets, superworms, waxworms, butterworms. I'll also try getting my pardalis some silk and phoenix worms. But that's pretty much all I have access to. Thanks for your generous replies to my original posting.

Chameleon Company: you suggested using Fluke gutload. I got the orange cubes they produce. Is that what you mean? Also, if I was to ever decide to offer my cham some preformed vitamin supplement, how often should I do it, how to do it, and where do I find the supplement. I have to say that I'd prefer finding a more "natural" way to provide vit A (directly in gutload; thus my original question in the original posting). But I also hear what you are saying. I want to know all options and suggestions available before I take a decision on how to proceed concerning Vit A.

Finally, one last general question for all about gutload: I give a variety of greens and veggies to my crickets, I now also give Fluke orange cubes. Crickets also have rolled oat available, but I am wondering how useful oat really is. What would be the best dry gutload recipe? I heard good stuff about bee pollen, bran,... Any educated opinion on the matter?

Evereyone, thank you for your replies. I didn't expect so many answers (and from such experienced and passionate people.

 

[bcornellier]

I am wondering how useful oat really is. What would be the best dry gutload recipe? I heard good stuff about bee pollen, bran,... Any educated opinion on the matter?

About dry gut load, I just read great stuff on Sandrachameleon's blog. Going to the health store tomorrow to get some of that stuff.

 

[sandrachameleon]

Sandrachameleon: you suggest gutloading my feeders with bird food (not too often) containing preformed vitamin A. By that you mean food for pet birds that you get in local pet stores, am I right?

You got it! but Read the labels - not all are created equally.

I am also trying to give a variety of feeder insect. But since I live in the city (Montreal), I do not have access to much wild caught insects (especially insects that wouldn't be feeding in pollution and toxicity). So I have to rely on what i can buy: crickets, superworms, waxworms, butterworms. I'll also try getting my pardalis some silk and phoenix worms. But that's pretty much all I have access to.

You might check out http://www.canadianfeeders.ca/ or feederfactory, see if they have anything you cant get locally.

Finally, one last general question for all about gutload: I give a variety of greens and veggies to my crickets, ....

If you're talking about quakers quick oats (uncooked), I wouldnt include this in my cricket gutload, at least not much. Oats have more Phosphorus than calcium, and not much in the way of vitamins.
That said, it makes a good bedding for breeding superworms

Here's some gutloading info you may find useful:
https://www.chameleonforums.com/blogs/sandrachameleon/75-feeder-nutrition.html
edit: oh I see you've been there already - glad it was useful.

More than you really wanted to ever know about raw quick oats:
in 1/2cup (40grams)
Water 3.75g
Energy 148kcal
Energy 621kJ
Protein 5.48g
Total lipid (fat) 2.75g
Ash 0.75g
Carbohydrate, by difference 27.27g
Fiber, total dietary 3.8g
Sugars, total 0.57g
Calcium, Ca 19mg
Iron, Fe 1.86mg
Magnesium, Mg 108mg
Phosphorus, P 183mg
Potassium, K 143mg
Sodium, Na 1mg
Zinc, Zn 1.28mg
Copper, Cu 0.148mg
Manganese, Mn 1.72mg
Selenium, Se 13.6mcg
Thiamin 0.216mg
Riboflavin 0.048mg
Niacin 0.328mg
Pantothenic acid 0.284mg
Vitamin B-6 0.04mg
Folate, total 13mcg
Folate, DFE 13mcg_DFE
Lutein + zeaxanthin 72mcg
Vitamin E (alpha-tocopherol) 0.28mg
Vitamin K (phylloquinone) 1.3mcg
Fatty acids, total saturated 0.444g
Fatty acids, total monounsaturated 0.792g
Fatty acids, total polyunsaturated 0.92g

 

[bcornellier]

You're a star Ms. Sandra. Thank you so much!