Heartbroken Cham Mom..please give advice for possible future chams

[MardiMay07]

Hello!

I'll give a backstory so that it will be easier to respond to what help I need. I work at PetSmart and take care of all sorts of animals and am also in school to be a Vet Tech and from there, a future DVM. I'm not saying that by any means I'm an expert anywhere, but needless to say I did SO much research before buying my little Pascal.
I took care of him a lot at work before being able to set his whole environment up and finally get him (about beginning of November) He was used to me, and never hissed when I held him and was so friendly it was ridiculous for a chameleon.

The situation is: A few months ago (around maybe mid March), I woke up on the weekend and noticed his eyes were puffy in the inner corners. I IMMEDIATELY took him to the vet and they diagnosed him with an upper respiratory infection and I began antibiotics that day. He didn't seem to improve after the 2 week first round, so they began another. The puffiness would go down and then a couple days later, flare back up again. He stopped climbing on branches at this time.

I decided to take him to another vet in my area whom is super personable and genuinely cares about the clients and the pets and has rave reviews. He said he was on the mend for the URI and didn't need more antibiotics. He claimed that a cap had been left on his right eye from his previous shed (he had been completely normal beforehand) and I managed to work it out around the end of June.

He seemed to improve well after this, even though I still had to hand feed a little bit because he wouldn't open his eyes. He was drinking even out of his reptirock I put in for him to soak. At the beginning of July, he seemed SO weak and when he'd walk, was really wobbly. He was still climbing on the cage and drinking so I was like "okay." I made yet another vet appointment for yesterday (7/8) and needless to say, I woke up with that motherly inkling at 6am. He had passed and was laying at the bottom of the cage.
I am just beside myself because he was so friendly and calm most of the time.
The bigger part is that I feel I should have known what was wrong, but I might just be beating myself up.

I read recently on here that they need calcium and multivite dustings about 2-3 times a week being a juvenile (he was probably around 10 months since we got him in the store about september 2013-maybe close to a year idk) and I just felt like a killer. I did dust, but not THAT often.

I guess my question is: Could this have been a freak thing since two vets couldn't figure it out? I don't believe it was MBD because he was climbing normally until the end and was really skinny instead of bloated..and also his limbs weren't swollen. I followed the care guidelines to a T minus the dusting but I'll show pictures of his habitat.












Thanks to whomever helps...I'd like to give it another shot because they're so neat but need to get over my Pascal.

 

[Cait0420]

So sorry to hear about pascal! He's in cham heaven now. I'm sure pascal knew how much you loved and cared for him!

 

[Lazy Boy]

Very sorry for you lose.

 

[MelissaB]

What did his urates (the white part of his droppings) look like? Was there any orange coloring or crystals in it? Some antibiotics can be really harsh on their kidneys, and they need to be kept really well hydrated when they're on it. Did he have a dripper, or were you misting him frequently to give him multiple opportunities to drink? They normally don't drink from a water dish, some do. Most folks don't use a dish because of the potential for dirty water, from poop or feeders falling into it.

I'm very sorry for your loss, it's clear you really cared about the little guy.

 

[Lpsouth1978]

I am truly sorry for your loss! Don't beat yourself up over this. Unfortunately sometimes things happen that are out of our control. It sounds like you were doing all you could for your Pascal. Chameleons are very good at hiding problems until it is already too late to help.

That being said, there are a couple of things that I would change next time.

1. You need to dust your feeders every day with calcium w/o D3, 2x a month with calcium with D3 and a multivitamin.

2. The water bowl in the cage is not a good idea. It will breed bacteria VERY fast and can certainly make a chameleon sick.

3. Your cage is a great size for a juvenile Veiled, but they need to moved into a larger cage by the time they are about 6 months. 24"x24"x48" is the accepted minimum for a male Veiled.

I am by no means trying to say that he died because of any of the things I mentioned above, on the contrary, I doubt that any of these directly caused his passing. If you can fill out the "How to Ask for Help" form from the heath section of the forums we may be able to help you understand this further, but as I said earlier, sometimes these things are out of our control.

Again, I am truly sorry for your loss and hope that you do not give up on chameleons because of it. Do lots of research and reading on this forum and when you feel ready, get another chameleon from a reputable breeder. I know you work there, but I would recommend not getting another from Petsmart or Petco, you have no way of knowing how they were cared for before getting to the store. Regardless of how well they may have been cared for at the store (usually VERY sub-par) they often receive chameleons that are already sick without knowing about it. There are always amazing chameleons for sale in the classifieds on this site, from sponsors and members, so that is a good place to start looking.

 

[Djturna4thakidz]

What lights? And schedule did you use?

 

[MardiMay07]

What did his urates (the white part of his droppings) look like? Was there any orange coloring or crystals in it? Some antibiotics can be really harsh on their kidneys, and they need to be kept really well hydrated when they're on it. Did he have a dripper, or were you misting him frequently to give him multiple opportunities to drink? They normally don't drink from a water dish, some do. Most folks don't use a dish because of the potential for dirty water, from poop or feeders falling into it.

I'm very sorry for your loss, it's clear you really cared about the little guy.

I really did :/ Almost more than the rest of my zoo. I've had other reptiles...I had a snake but had to give him away (due to helping my grandma for awhile and she hates snakes) and a turtle who is now about 5.

Anyways, there weren't any weird discolorations on anything of his. Once in awhile there would be some yellow on white but nothing alarming..I monitored him constantly and so did my fiance because we both loved him.
He had both actually...the big black thing next to the cage in the photos was a mister that sprayed every hour, I had cut a couple holes in the top of the screen to mist right down onto the plants. Humidity was always 50-80% and his temps were always 90-100 basking and cooler at the bottom :/.
And he never really pooped in the water, always either on the branch in the same spot, or else in a certain corner of the cage. He would wade and drink out of the water, but I changed it every day.

 

[MardiMay07]

I am truly sorry for your loss! Don't beat yourself up over this. Unfortunately sometimes things happen that are out of our control. It sounds like you were doing all you could for your Pascal. Chameleons are very good at hiding problems until it is already too late to help.

That being said, there are a couple of things that I would change next time.

1. You need to dust your feeders every day with calcium w/o D3, 2x a month with calcium with D3 and a multivitamin.

2. The water bowl in the cage is not a good idea. It will breed bacteria VERY fast and can certainly make a chameleon sick.

3. Your cage is a great size for a juvenile Veiled, but they need to moved into a larger cage by the time they are about 6 months. 24"x24"x48" is the accepted minimum for a male Veiled.

I am by no means trying to say that he died because of any of the things I mentioned above, on the contrary, I doubt that any of these directly caused his passing. If you can fill out the "How to Ask for Help" form from the heath section of the forums we may be able to help you understand this further, but as I said earlier, sometimes these things are out of our control.

Again, I am truly sorry for your loss and hope that you do not give up on chameleons because of it. Do lots of research and reading on this forum and when you feel ready, get another chameleon from a reputable breeder. I know you work there, but I would recommend not getting another from Petsmart or Petco, you have no way of knowing how they were cared for before getting to the store. Regardless of how well they may have been cared for at the store (usually VERY sub-par) they often receive chameleons that are already sick without knowing about it. There are always amazing chameleons for sale in the classifieds on this site, from sponsors and members, so that is a good place to start looking.

Well, thank you for the cage advice, but I want to do everything exactly right to avoid 'setting myself up' next time. The only thing I seemed to miss was dusting as he had so much space in the cage he was in...I'm honestly not even sure what sex Pascal was because I never got the chance to really figure it out.

I changed the water in the rock religiously and cleaned it daily because he loved to soak in it as most reptiles do (I had a snake previously). And honestly, the new chameleon at work is so small, and so was Pascal but I knew I had a shot because I was the one who was taking care of him there for awhile but I have no idea where they get them from as far as reputation. My friend/manager who is the Pet Care manager said she's not even sure so I won't go there again and she had her Jacksons for years and it just passed.

How reputable do you find people even on this site? And how do they usually ship?

 

[MardiMay07]

What lights? And schedule did you use?

Daytime: Basking Exo Terra bulb 75-100W depending on the season. 100 was getting too hot about mid June so I switched back to 75W..made basking spot 100*. Left this on for 8 hours a day 7-4 on a timer.

UVB: Reptisun UVB 5.0 left on from 7-8 for summer hours/extra daylight. Also on a timer.

At night, after 8, Id also shut off the mister and it would drop to 80* and humidity would stay at 50%. Consistently.

 

[Lpsouth1978]

Well, thank you for the cage advice, but I want to do everything exactly right to avoid 'setting myself up' next time. The only thing I seemed to miss was dusting as he had so much space in the cage he was in...I'm honestly not even sure what sex Pascal was because I never got the chance to really figure it out. If you are worried about dusting due to the size of the cage, you can use a homemade feeder cup. I use one with all of my chams. It contains all of the feeders and supplements so they don't get lost in the cage, and makes it easy to monitor how much they eat.

I changed the water in the rock religiously and cleaned it daily because he loved to soak in it as most reptiles do (I had a snake previously). Chameleons generally DO NOT soak. They live their entire life in the tree tops, if they are on the ground soaking in standing water, there is something wrong. And honestly, the new chameleon at work is so small, and so was Pascal but I knew I had a shot because I was the one who was taking care of him there for awhile but I have no idea where they get them from as far as reputation. My friend/manager who is the Pet Care manager said she's not even sure so I won't go there again and she had her Jacksons for years and it just passed.

How reputable do you find people even on this site? And how do they usually ship? I have had good experiences on this site. Most of the people on here who have chameleons for sale breed them for the sake of the hobby, not for the money. If you really have doubt about someone or their chameleons, you can purchase from a sponsor of the site. If they were not reputable, they would not be allowed to be a sponsor of the site. I have purchased ALL of my chameleons from members on these forums and they are all healthy and AMAZING chams. Also, when you purchase from members of the forums, you can usually get pictures of the Sire and Dam, Cages, and an idea of their care. This is something you cannot get from any petstore I know of, at least not near me. Most ship overnight with FedEx, though that is something to be discussed with them when purchasing.

My response is in red above. Again, don't beat yourself up. Take your time and when you are ready find that perfect little one to fill the space left by Pascal. I would offer you a little Ambilobe panther, but they won't be going to new homes for at least 8 months, since they are still in the incubator.

 

[Lpsouth1978]

Daytime: Basking Exo Terra bulb 75-100W depending on the season. 100 was getting too hot about mid June so I switched back to 75W..made basking spot 100*. Left this on for 8 hours a day 7-4 on a timer.

UVB: Reptisun UVB 5.0 left on from 7-8 for summer hours/extra daylight. Also on a timer.

At night, after 8, Id also shut off the mister and it would drop to 80* and humidity would stay at 50%. Consistently.

100* is pretty hot for a young Veiled. Most keep the basking spot around 85*. Once they are adults you can raise the temp to 90-95*. I think the misting is all good. As for the lighting schedule, I don't necessarily see a big problem with your schedule, though most of us run a 12 hour cycle. For instance, my lights, basking and UVB, come on at 7:30am and go off at 7:30pm. If anything, I would leave the UVB on the schedule you have currently, but turn the basking bulb on at 8:00 am and off at something like 6:00pm. This would give a sort of dusk to dawn effect.

If the ambient temps in your room stay at about 80*, you really don't need much of a heat source. A 40W bulb would probably do the job. If possible, you also want the temp to drop down closer to 65-70 at night. They need a night time drop in temps, to really thrive, as well as complete darkness at night.

 

[MardiMay07]

100* is pretty hot for a young Veiled. Most keep the basking spot around 85*. Once they are adults you can raise the temp to 90-95*. I think the misting is all good. As for the lighting schedule, I don't necessarily see a big problem with your schedule, though most of us run a 12 hour cycle. For instance, my lights, basking and UVB, come on at 7:30am and go off at 7:30pm. If anything, I would leave the UVB on the schedule you have currently, but turn the basking bulb on at 8:00 am and off at something like 6:00pm. This would give a sort of dusk to dawn effect.

If the ambient temps in your room stay at about 80*, you really don't need much of a heat source. A 40W bulb would probably do the job. If possible, you also want the temp to drop down closer to 65-70 at night. They need a night time drop in temps, to really thrive, as well as complete darkness at night.

Ok, thank you. My vet actually suggested this because he specializes in reptiles also. He gave me a schedule for the UVB to improve his health to mimic the daylight depending on the season (ex 12hrs in winter, 14 in summer because of longer days) so he wouldn't go into hibernation. The room was dark except for a nightlight clock closer to our bed on the opposite side of the room, but I was confused on basking temps because some said 90-100, 80-85 or whatnot so I was just looking for ONE straightforward answer so thank you.

 

[MardiMay07]

Ok so after checking the "How to Ask for Help" page, I pretty much covered everything in previous posts.

Veiled chameleon, probably around 10 months old, probably most likely male.

I handled him pretty much daily to every other day because he had become accustomed to it, even though it says they get stressed, I did it super delicately. Especially towards the end when he needed to be hand fed, my hands were always clean.

I fed him a combination of gut loaded crickets from my job, and mealworms because he was so little and needed to gain some weight. My problem is possibly not dusting his food enough.

As for watering, I had a mister set to mist every hour on top of one of us spray bottling (with conditioner) and an every day cleaned 'water hole.' I did see him drinking and even hand watered with the spray bottle when he got too weak.

He? had never been tested for parasites because nothing seemed out of the ordinary and I'd had him to two different vets who didn't say anything about that being a possibility. His feces and urine seemed normal colors.
No previous history other than I took care of him at my job and then ended up bringing him home because he grew on me.

I have a Reptibreeze screen cage 16x16x20 because he was still so little, he had so much space in this cage.
Lighting: Exo Terra 75W basking made temps between 95-100, ReptiSun 5.0 UVB. Basking left on 8 hours and UVB 14 for summertime, both on timers.

Have thermometers and a hygrometer. Temps in cage were again 95-100 basking, about 80 everywhere else. Humidity: 60-80%

I used false plants because i wanted water to stay on them for him to drink and not be absorbed.

His cage was in a corner of my bedroom (warmest room in winter) where there's less traffic and no outside noises. He is on a file cabinet that isn't used. (see photos at beginning of thread).

He was improving from an Upper Respiratory Infection and seemed more vivacious, then suddenly a few days ago started becoming super weak and died on 7/7 before I could take him to the vet at 1:30. He and I have no idea what the issue could've been at all.

 

[MardiMay07]

100* is pretty hot for a young Veiled. Most keep the basking spot around 85*. Once they are adults you can raise the temp to 90-95*. I think the misting is all good. As for the lighting schedule, I don't necessarily see a big problem with your schedule, though most of us run a 12 hour cycle. For instance, my lights, basking and UVB, come on at 7:30am and go off at 7:30pm. If anything, I would leave the UVB on the schedule you have currently, but turn the basking bulb on at 8:00 am and off at something like 6:00pm. This would give a sort of dusk to dawn effect.

If the ambient temps in your room stay at about 80*, you really don't need much of a heat source. A 40W bulb would probably do the job. If possible, you also want the temp to drop down closer to 65-70 at night. They need a night time drop in temps, to really thrive, as well as complete darkness at night.

At what age are they considered "adults?" Over a year?

 

[Lpsouth1978]

At what age are they considered "adults?" Over a year?

About a year, though some will consider them adults once they reach sexual maturity, which can happen as early as 8-9 months. My boy is 11 months and I consider him an adult as far as temps are concerned. Though I still feed him as much as he will eat, because he is still growing.

 

[MardiMay07]

How do you tell if and when they've reached sexual maturity? That's one thing I had no idea about, but since he was so calm I'd assume he was there already.

 

[Lizardguy1]

Based on your photos and age of 10+ months, he was probably sexually mature.

I echo many of the comments about cage size (larger is better), lighting, the water dish (a definite no no), and care when he was a juvenile. However, I believe misting once an hour is way too much. Combined with a water dish, the constant humidity of 50-80% is way too high. Just my speculation, but I believe that may have contributed to the URI. Their natural habitat in Yemen is quite arid, so I believe the tolerate/prefer drier conditions than is commonly advertised. I give my adult Veileds a good watering between once every 2 days and twice a day, depending on weather conditions, letting the cage dry out completely between waterings.

Note I said weather conditions- I may be a bit of a contrain on this point but I believe in keeping my Veileds (and Oustalet's) outside, weather and climate permitting. I believe natural sunlight is better than any supplementation in preventing MBD. I kept them outside year round when I lived in Florida, and they are outside Feb-Nov here in Las Vegas. As long as overnight low is over 45F they stay out overnight. I take extra precautions during our summer heat, but that shouldn't be an issue in PA. Even if you can't house a Cham outdoors, putting him out on a porch or deck for a few hours a day on the weekends is better than nothing.

Nutrition- I'm a strong believer in 1) gutloading and 2) variety. I dust with supplements only sparingly (a bit more for hatchlings/juveniles). I know variety can be a challenge, but a diet of crickets and mealworms is insufficient in my opinion, and I have seen a Cham get bored and languish on a limited diet. I feed my adult chams these, but they make up less than 50% of their diet by volume. Largest item in their diet is Dubia roaches, followed by crickets, superworms, horned worms. I also feed wild caught insects such as grasshoppers, cicadas, and other flying insects occasionally when I can collect them from pesticide-free areas. I gut-load dubias and crickets on carrots and leafy greens such as kale, spinach, and collard/mustard greens. In their arid climate I believe Veileds get much of their moisture from food; they particularly love dubias and horned worms which are quite succulent.

I hope this helps-

 

[MardiMay07]

Based on your photos and age of 10+ months, he was probably sexually mature.

I echo many of the comments about cage size (larger is better), lighting, the water dish (a definite no no), and care when he was a juvenile. However, I believe misting once an hour is way too much. Combined with a water dish, the constant humidity of 50-80% is way too high. Just my speculation, but I believe that may have contributed to the URI. Their natural habitat in Yemen is quite arid, so I believe the tolerate/prefer drier conditions than is commonly advertised. I give my adult Veileds a good watering between once every 2 days and twice a day, depending on weather conditions, letting the cage dry out completely between waterings.

Note I said weather conditions- I may be a bit of a contrain on this point but I believe in keeping my Veileds (and Oustalet's) outside, weather and climate permitting. I believe natural sunlight is better than any supplementation in preventing MBD. I kept them outside year round when I lived in Florida, and they are outside Feb-Nov here in Las Vegas. As long as overnight low is over 45F they stay out overnight. I take extra precautions during our summer heat, but that shouldn't be an issue in PA. Even if you can't house a Cham outdoors, putting him out on a porch or deck for a few hours a day on the weekends is better than nothing.

Nutrition- I'm a strong believer in 1) gutloading and 2) variety. I dust with supplements only sparingly (a bit more for hatchlings/juveniles). I know variety can be a challenge, but a diet of crickets and mealworms is insufficient in my opinion, and I have seen a Cham get bored and languish on a limited diet. I feed my adult chams these, but they make up less than 50% of their diet by volume. Largest item in their diet is Dubia roaches, followed by crickets, superworms, horned worms. I also feed wild caught insects such as grasshoppers, cicadas, and other flying insects occasionally when I can collect them from pesticide-free areas. I gut-load dubias and crickets on carrots and leafy greens such as kale, spinach, and collard/mustard greens. In their arid climate I believe Veileds get much of their moisture from food; they particularly love dubias and horned worms which are quite succulent.

I hope this helps-

I never had any idea about the dubias. How do you care for these? I could probably get them from pet stores around me since there are so many. As for variety, what would a decent feeding schedule be? I've also heard of feeding greens but don't know how they would eat them if they're not really supposed to go on the cage bottom. When he was healthy, he would literally be on the bottom waiting for his mealworms.
I want to figure all this out before trying again to avoid further upset.

Las Vegas is a decent area to raise chameleons, especially outside, but in Pittsburgh I wouldn't dare leave anything that meant something to me outside. I have a screen cage and thought that they needed drinking water on the leaves very often, as was my impression since they don't drink from anything else.
In everything I've read, it says humidity should be at least 50% and a majority of the time it was 50-60% a couple hours after misting. It's a timed mister, so the settings are every 1, 3, 6 or 12 hours.
I didn't get a water dish until about a couple weeks ago, so that had nothing to do with the URI. My vet said he was very dehydrated so I changed the mist setting for each hour for 15 seconds.

 

[waynek]

I also believe in keeping them outside as much as possible . after all in the wild they are outside with all the variables in sun , shade , rain and temperature. being in real sunlight also seems to improve their color and growth .

 

[MardiMay07]

I also believe in keeping them outside as much as possible . after all in the wild they are outside with all the variables in sun , shade , rain and temperature. being in real sunlight also seems to improve their color and growth .

Oh I have no problem taking it outside for some hours during the day at all. I do that with my turtle as well. He was just sick for so long, and I wouldn't leave the cage outside when I try again as living in a townhouse it would probably all be stolen.