Heat + Humidity = RI ??

[cyberlocc]

i don't remember ever seeing it before.

Its defiantly new. and I LOVE IT!

I have been speaking these very concerns, for what I think has almost been 2 years. With lots of push back, especially on the Facebook groups. I was starting to think that maybe I was crazy, and just overly paranoid (I am a very paranoid person). The fact that a group of Scientists that I highly respect has posted the same concerns and ideas, has be beyond happy.

I don't remember ever seeing it before.
It is dated...2014 @cyberlocc

Your right it is, how have I never seen this before! This has been right under my nose this entire time??? Was it published then? Where is it on their site? I didnt think fogging was a thing back in 2014?

 

[kinyonga]

@cyberlocc I added to my last post. It's dated September 2014.
And you are crazy and paranoid!

 

[kinyonga]

I didn't find it on their site ...I was googling things to do with humidity and temperature and a few other things when it came up. That's all I know.

 

[cyberlocc]

@cyberlocc I added to my last post. It's dated September 2014.
And you are crazy and paranoid!

IK I seen, how have I missed this article for SO LONG. I guess its because I always just read their field work. I have not much looked at their care sheets, at least that far down in the pages.

SO MANY Threads, I have argued all those Points, with Nothing to back me up. You gave me the HOLY GRAIL, of backing up my thoughts on the Foggers!

and I know I am, but a little less so I feel today .

I didn't find it on their site ...I was googling things to do with humidity and temperature and a few other things when it came up. That's all I know.

Its nestled in at the VERY bottom of their page on Caresheet information.

With other GOOD Articles that I never seen... https://www.madcham.de/en/rueckwaende-im-terrarium/ That one talks about the Coco/Clay/Cork walls that I have been pushing too. And they actually speak about a danger, with Cocofiber walls (the stringy stuff) that I never even thought of, and almost used that in my large viv (difference between using that, and using the Cork Bark walls I use, is about 200 dollars). Got lucky on that one lol. I was about to use that material on some new cages though, now I wont be.

You have to go to "Captive Chameleons" > "The Terrarium" > Bottom of the Page "Foggers" its next to Waterfalls.

 

[kinyonga]

Glad I made you happy! Are you doing the happy dance?

 

[cyberlocc]

Glad I made you happy! Are you doing the happy dance?

Oh yes, you have no idea!

10,000 word post about this coming soon! Finally with a SOURCE and not just my Crazy person Ramblings!

 

[kinyonga]

One thing that ticks me off about madcham though is that I can't cut and paste so I can quote the part that I'm trying to use to make a point.

 

[cyberlocc]

One thing that ticks me off about madcham though is that I can't cut and past so I can quote the part that I'm trying to use to make a point.

IKR! Its that "Digiprove"

I always just SS the writing.

It sucks, that people dont give credit where its due to the point where they feel the need to do that. However I understand.

 

[Alexl]

IK I seen, how have I missed this article for SO LONG.

Maybe I can clear this up. The original article was written by me, but around 2010. This article was posted on the rebuilt website in 2014. In 2019, I finally found time to rework the article completely, making it "invisible" to users for a few days, but not changing the original uploading date.

One thing that ticks me off about madcham though is that I can't cut and paste so I can quote the part that I'm trying to use to make a point.

I'm very sorry about this. But after more and more articles were stolen from the website and simply uploaded again somewhere else, we needed some kind of protection - or at least a copy barrier that would make it clear to everyone that we don't like copied articles, photos, and graphics.

P.S.: There are probably also some translation problems on the whole website. Neither I nor Dimby or Thorsten are native English speakers. So please point out any ambiguities, sometimes they arise from the language barrier. Easiest is by e mail, I'm not present in forums for most of the time.

 

[nightanole]

SO what do we use to keep humidity up? Run misters over beach towels? Use only evaporative ones with metal media?

 

[cyberlocc]

Maybe I can clear this up. The original article was written by me, but around 2010. This article was posted on the rebuilt website in 2014. In 2019, I finally found time to rework the article completely, making it "invisible" to users for a few days, but not changing the original uploading date.



I'm very sorry about this. But after more and more articles were stolen from the website and simply uploaded again somewhere else, we needed some kind of protection - or at least a copy barrier that would make it clear to everyone that we don't like copied articles, photos, and graphics.

P.S.: There are probably also some translation problems on the whole website. Neither I nor Dimby or Thorsten are native English speakers. So please point out any ambiguities, sometimes they arise from the language barrier. Easiest is by e mail, I'm not present in forums for most of the time.

So is what I do/suggested okay? Take small snippets via SS (Greenshot program allows me to snip, small pieces of the screen) for the small piece that I am trying to source?

I of course always source back to you and your article. I highly respect and love reading all your guys stuff. I only ever do said quotes here on CF. However if you prefered we didn't do that either, I will do so no longer.

I assumed it was more as you said, people stealing entire articles, and using them as their own.


Also thank you SO much for your immense contribution to our community. Your site is one of my favorites, and I heavily read it and find myself going back, linking it and recommending at minimum weekly. Also the launage has always seemed great, I figured German was first launage but you do a stellar job with English as well!

EG: is the thread, that I have been itching to make on Foggers. I have always been hesitant in posts bringing them up. Delivered small bits, and a link or 2 on my reasoning and my own experiences. However your post, had finally given me the confidence I needed to make a full out thread.
https://www.chameleonforums.com/threads/foggers-a-tool-or-a-danger.173556/

If you have the time, I would love to get your opinions, on my thoughts as well on said thread. I am a huge fan and your critiques would be invaluable, but understand if you have not the time .

SO what do we use to keep humidity up? Run misters over beach towels? Use only evaporative ones with metal media?

I have some Ideas, that have worked for me. Hit the Thread above, they are all there.

Dont want to derail this thread too much with the humidity, and my anti fogger rhetoric!

 

[Alexl]

So is what I do/suggested okay? Take small snippets via SS (Greenshot program allows me to snip, small pieces of the screen) for the small piece that I am trying to source?

That's completely ok!

Thank you for the compliments, I am very happy if the website benefits people (and chameleons).

 

[RECK7ESS]

Heat + Humidity = RI? Or does it.

The Premise:

We have touched on this lightly, in the last few "Naturalistic Humidity" and "Naturalistic Hydration" threads.

We really should make a thread about this (Done), as it is a "FACT" that gets touted an awful lot, that Heat + Humidity = RI. However in the case, of say Panthers. The humidity is 80-100% all day, during the hottest part of the day, and the hottest part of the Year, the Wet season is the hottest time in Madagascar, its hot and its humid.

Here is a weather data example from Ambilobe Madagascar.

Spoiler: Weather Data

** Weather Data for January 15, 2020 in Ambilobe Madagascar. - https://weather.com/weather/hourbyh...667ffff04bacba68a95226e0c04e575daee78b008bd12

The run down of the chart, Hottest part of the day, 29c, 84% humidity. It never dipped below 75% all day. That is Ambilobe btw, which has lower humidity than places like Andasibe, or Moasola, which there is also Panther Locales in.

Florida is the same way from what I understand, very high humidity, and very high temps. Veileds, of which I know little about have taken up residency there regardless of this fact. On top of the massive amount of Keepers in FL, that keeps their chams outdoors year round, in extremely high heat, with extremely high humidity.

The Facts:

Upon my own research, I find very little (none) of this "Heat + Humidity = RI" in any study at all. RI is a Bacterial Infection, heat and humidity alone do not create bacteria. Heat, Humidity, and Stagnant air do. This thought of Heat + Humidity was also very common in the snake world apparently, for a long time. The Snake people have long since busted this as a complete and total myth.

On the contrary, they have found the opposite to be true. Low Humidity and High Heat will cause an RI, Low Temperatures will cause an RI, and Hot and Humid + Poor Ventilation will cause an RI.

As a matter of fact, and I have brought this up before. A common RI treatment for Snakes, is to use Hot Water Humidified with saline, or F10, in a closed container. So if High Heat, Plus Humidity (what they do with the treatment above) and a anti septic medium cures RIs, how does it cause them?

It doesn't, no part of high humidity plus high heat causes an RI. Bacteria causes an RI. Bacteria in the air, is caused by optimal conditions of growth. Which is High Heat, High Humidity and Low Airflow. Then you say, well Cyber a Screen Cage is very ventilated so how can that be the case??? Yep we are getting to that in the next section .

Some Linkeys
https://www.petmd.com/reptile/conditions/skin/c_rp_pneumonia
http://www.anapsid.org/rti.html


The Myth:

A thing to keep in mind is this whole high heat + high humidity thing is fairly new as well. For Years, and going back even longer, the common husbandry technique has been mist in the morning, mist in the afternoon, mist a few hours before lights off. No one was turning basking lights off, when they misted. And everyone was not running around with constant RIs. Want a source, your here. I love reading the old threads, go back into the past, Run that scroll bar all the way back to 2008, and read read read, and when your done with that, read some more .

The issue is the opposite of what is being toted. I know Ares (and I am not picking on you!) asked Salty, his sources for why he believes this is a Myth. However the problem with that logic, is this is a new idea. One that was not stated 3 years ago, or even 4. This is a New Idea, that has been shown with NO BACKING, I have seen ZERO testing on this "FACT". This in my opinion is in poor form. The sources of this idea, or testing data should have been shown by the folks presenting this idea.


A Solution?:

Here I would like to bring up a Few Solutions. This are not proven, only my one and a couple other forum members thoughts from things we have seen. That is why the question mark .

Ventilation Increase: So with what we know, ventilation increase seems to be the most helpful fix. I am not sure how useful this will be with Screen Cages, however I venture that in Screen that is not the Cause of the RI. More so, I feel it may have to do with below.

Bioactive: Me and James talked about this notice in some detail. Since moving to Bioactive vivaria, neither mine or James animals have experienced anything resembling an RI. We wondered, if this could be a natural Plus to Bioactive, that it moves away from Bubble Cham Syndrome.

Think of the husbandry techniques used in screen. Everything that is questioned, "Should I put a carpet" - No Bacteria, "should I add moss" - NO BACTERIA, "How often should I clean my Viv" - Daily, Umm Bacteria???

This leads in my opinion what I would call the "Bubble Cham Syndrome". This is a play on the very real human condition, where babies are born with low or no immune systems. They are kept in a Quarantine Chamber, with Zero pathogens allowed to enter. The negative of this, is that this person is now destined to this life. There is plenty of movies revolving around this, but it is a real thing.

Your immune system is strengthened by using it, ever wondered what is in a Flu shot? The Flu. They give you a small dose of the flu, so that your immune system can be alerted to its existence and learn how to fight it off. That way when you actually contract the flu, your immune system says, Ohh this crap again, yep I can kill this.

By keeping chameleons as has been so common throughout the years, as "Bubble Chams" we are setting them up to have a very weak immune system. Their body has not the immune system to fight, anything. This is also likely why we in captivity see such high problems with Parasites, where in the wild they are loaded and are just fine. We are weakening their immune system, by treating them like a single germ will kill them, to the point where that actually becomes a reality.

https://www.naava.io/editorial/a-too-sterile-environment-is-harmful-for-your-immune-system/

Now again thats just a personal theory, I have no reptile specific scientific evidence to support it, however it falls in line with how a basic immune system operates. If anyone has any studies pertaining to reptiles, that contrasts this, I would love to see it.


Thoughts? Articles? Testing? is Welcomed and Encouraged.

Your personal theory there seems to actually make complete sense. And also of course in these natural locations heat and humidity do go hand in hand.

 

[skoram]

Heat + Humidity = RI? Or does it.

The Premise:

We have touched on this lightly, in the last few "Naturalistic Humidity" and "Naturalistic Hydration" threads.

We really should make a thread about this (Done), as it is a "FACT" that gets touted an awful lot, that Heat + Humidity = RI. However in the case, of say Panthers. The humidity is 80-100% all day, during the hottest part of the day, and the hottest part of the Year, the Wet season is the hottest time in Madagascar, its hot and its humid.

Here is a weather data example from Ambilobe Madagascar.

Spoiler: Weather Data

** Weather Data for January 15, 2020 in Ambilobe Madagascar. - https://weather.com/weather/hourbyh...667ffff04bacba68a95226e0c04e575daee78b008bd12

The run down of the chart, Hottest part of the day, 29c, 84% humidity. It never dipped below 75% all day. That is Ambilobe btw, which has lower humidity than places like Andasibe, or Moasola, which there is also Panther Locales in.

Florida is the same way from what I understand, very high humidity, and very high temps. Veileds, of which I know little about have taken up residency there regardless of this fact. On top of the massive amount of Keepers in FL, that keeps their chams outdoors year round, in extremely high heat, with extremely high humidity.

The Facts:

Upon my own research, I find very little (none) of this "Heat + Humidity = RI" in any study at all. RI is a Bacterial Infection, heat and humidity alone do not create bacteria. Heat, Humidity, and Stagnant air do. This thought of Heat + Humidity was also very common in the snake world apparently, for a long time. The Snake people have long since busted this as a complete and total myth.

On the contrary, they have found the opposite to be true. Low Humidity and High Heat will cause an RI, Low Temperatures will cause an RI, and Hot and Humid + Poor Ventilation will cause an RI.

As a matter of fact, and I have brought this up before. A common RI treatment for Snakes, is to use Hot Water Humidified with saline, or F10, in a closed container. So if High Heat, Plus Humidity (what they do with the treatment above) and a anti septic medium cures RIs, how does it cause them?

It doesn't, no part of high humidity plus high heat causes an RI. Bacteria causes an RI. Bacteria in the air, is caused by optimal conditions of growth. Which is High Heat, High Humidity and Low Airflow. Then you say, well Cyber a Screen Cage is very ventilated so how can that be the case??? Yep we are getting to that in the next section .

Some Linkeys
https://www.petmd.com/reptile/conditions/skin/c_rp_pneumonia
http://www.anapsid.org/rti.html


The Myth:

A thing to keep in mind is this whole high heat + high humidity thing is fairly new as well. For Years, and going back even longer, the common husbandry technique has been mist in the morning, mist in the afternoon, mist a few hours before lights off. No one was turning basking lights off, when they misted. And everyone was not running around with constant RIs. Want a source, your here. I love reading the old threads, go back into the past, Run that scroll bar all the way back to 2008, and read read read, and when your done with that, read some more .

The issue is the opposite of what is being toted. I know Ares (and I am not picking on you!) asked Salty, his sources for why he believes this is a Myth. However the problem with that logic, is this is a new idea. One that was not stated 3 years ago, or even 4. This is a New Idea, that has been shown with NO BACKING, I have seen ZERO testing on this "FACT". This in my opinion is in poor form. The sources of this idea, or testing data should have been shown by the folks presenting this idea.


A Solution?:

Here I would like to bring up a Few Solutions. This are not proven, only my one and a couple other forum members thoughts from things we have seen. That is why the question mark .

Ventilation Increase: So with what we know, ventilation increase seems to be the most helpful fix. I am not sure how useful this will be with Screen Cages, however I venture that in Screen that is not the Cause of the RI. More so, I feel it may have to do with below.

Bioactive: Me and James talked about this notice in some detail. Since moving to Bioactive vivaria, neither mine or James animals have experienced anything resembling an RI. We wondered, if this could be a natural Plus to Bioactive, that it moves away from Bubble Cham Syndrome.

Think of the husbandry techniques used in screen. Everything that is questioned, "Should I put a carpet" - No Bacteria, "should I add moss" - NO BACTERIA, "How often should I clean my Viv" - Daily, Umm Bacteria???

This leads in my opinion what I would call the "Bubble Cham Syndrome". This is a play on the very real human condition, where babies are born with low or no immune systems. They are kept in a Quarantine Chamber, with Zero pathogens allowed to enter. The negative of this, is that this person is now destined to this life. There is plenty of movies revolving around this, but it is a real thing.

Your immune system is strengthened by using it, ever wondered what is in a Flu shot? The Flu. They give you a small dose of the flu, so that your immune system can be alerted to its existence and learn how to fight it off. That way when you actually contract the flu, your immune system says, Ohh this crap again, yep I can kill this.

By keeping chameleons as has been so common throughout the years, as "Bubble Chams" we are setting them up to have a very weak immune system. Their body has not the immune system to fight, anything. This is also likely why we in captivity see such high problems with Parasites, where in the wild they are loaded and are just fine. We are weakening their immune system, by treating them like a single germ will kill them, to the point where that actually becomes a reality.

https://www.naava.io/editorial/a-too-sterile-environment-is-harmful-for-your-immune-system/

Now again thats just a personal theory, I have no reptile specific scientific evidence to support it, however it falls in line with how a basic immune system operates. If anyone has any studies pertaining to reptiles, that contrasts this, I would love to see it.


Thoughts? Articles? Testing? is Welcomed and Encouraged.

I totally agree with almost everything you say here but think we have to be careful about this information is presented.

Although heat + humidity definitely doesn't cause RI (bacteria does), it can definitely contribute to conditions which increase the chance of your chameleon contracting RI. It depends on so many other factors and if those are not taken into account, for some people higher heat + humidity may be the negative tipping point.

We cannot compare heat + humidity outdoors to heat + humidity in our enclosures. I think this is a potentially dangerous analogy. Outdoors we have constant ventilation, we have an infinitely larger "pool" of air, we have UVB from the sun which easily reaches ground level, we have, in many areas, acidic surface conditions from rainwater and decomposing organic matter, countless detritivores and, more importantly, microbivores and probably about a thousand other things that I have no clue about.

Some of this can be addressed by good, constant ventilation, some others can be addressed by having a bioactive enclosure or, if not, by ensuring you do not have still water building up at the bottom of your enclosure and frequent cleanings.

 

[skoram]

I'm a step further in crazy about my misting reservoir, cleaning it, bacteria in it. To the point where I dont have one anymore. .
My Mistking is connected directly to my RO Tank. I use Solenoids to stop it from flooding the cages and house. Also can turn 1 MK pump into using multiple different timers, for different main lines for different cages.

This is not possible for me since my RO filter is too far away from my chameleon room, but I did at point think about putting a UVC lamp in my reservoir

 

[cyberlocc]

I totally agree with almost everything you say here but think we have to be careful about this information is presented.

Although heat + humidity definitely doesn't cause RI (bacteria does), it can definitely contribute to conditions which increase the chance of your chameleon contracting RI. It depends on so many other factors and if those are not taken into account, for some people higher heat + humidity may be the negative tipping point.

We cannot compare heat + humidity outdoors to heat + humidity in our enclosures. I think this is a potentially dangerous analogy. Outdoors we have constant ventilation, we have an infinitely larger "pool" of air, we have UVB from the sun which easily reaches ground level, we have, in many areas, acidic surface conditions from rainwater and decomposing organic matter, countless detritivores and, more importantly, microbivores and probably about a thousand other things that I have no clue about.

Some of this can be addressed by good, constant ventilation, some others can be addressed by having a bioactive enclosure or, if not, by ensuring you do not have still water building up at the bottom of your enclosure and frequent cleanings.

I'm kind of confused by your post. I agree with what your saying, but that was framed in the OP you quoted. Or at least attempted to be framed.

Was it not to you?

 

[cyberlocc]

This is not possible for me since my RO filter is too far away from my chameleon room, but I did at point think about putting a UVC lamp in my reservoir

It's never too far! My RO is in the kitchen, and currently my few Vivariums in the living room. For that setup I had to run 55 feet of MK tubing (it's not MK branded, but the black 1/4 inch tubing).

It's ran through the kitchen cupboards and the floor lol. (where the hardwood meets the carpeted living room, in-between them)

If you own your own home, you could run water lines to the room the cage is in and do a second RO.


Honestly not having to lug water around it is well worth it!

 

[skoram]

I'm kind of confused by your post. I agree with what your saying, but that was framed in the OP you quoted. Or at least attempted to be framed.

Was it not to you?

Yes, it was, sorry if some of my points came across as if you did not already address them.

The main reason for my concern is that some people may only skim these posts, or read the first few sentences. For example, if someone were just to read a statement like "heat + humidity does not cause RI. many of our chameleons live in natural habitat where it is constantly hot and humid during the day" they may think "hey that makes perfect sense", ignore the rest and immediately go and raise the humidity, heat or both in their enclosures.

That is why I say we should be careful how the information is presented and make the necessarily disclaimers as early as possible in these posts.

 

[skoram]

It's never too far! My RO is in the kitchen, and currently my few Vivariums in the living room. For that setup I had to run 55 feet of MK tubing (it's not MK branded, but the black 1/4 inch tubing).

It's ran through the kitchen cupboards and the floor lol. (where the hardwood meets the carpeted living room, in-between them)

If you own your own home, you could run water lines to the room the cage is in and do a second RO.

Honestly not having to lug water around it is well worth it!

The problem is not that I do not own my own home, the problem is that my wife also owns it

She would murder me in my sleep if I ever tried to do what you just described lol.

 

[cyberlocc]

Yes, it was, sorry if some of my points came across as if you did not already address them.

The main reason for my concern is that some people may only skim these posts, or read the first few sentences. For example, if someone were just to read a statement like "heat + humidity does not cause RI. many of our chameleons live in natural habitat where it is constantly hot and humid during the day" they may think "hey that makes perfect sense", ignore the rest and immediately go and raise the humidity, heat or both in their enclosures.

That is why I say we should be careful how the information is presented and make the necessarily disclaimers as early as possible in these posts.

Oh yes. True.

I been trying to adapt my way of posting lately, to be easier to read and not as intimidating, I will add that to the list as well! That's a good point.

It's hard for me, to envision it as someone who loves to read. So I read everything lol, but your right alot of folks don't.

The problem is not that I do not own my own home, the problem is that my wife also owns it

She would murder me in my sleep if I ever tried to do what you just described lol.

Yes mine was not happy about it either. I chose my timing wisely. We had a small leak under the sink, for a few weeks, and mold was starting to grow a bit, before I got to it. So I had to rip out the old bottom of that cupboard and out in a new piece. And I told her, that was part of the reason and this was my fix! Shh don't tell her .

You can't see the lines, they are in the underframe of the cupboards floor in the hardwoods groove where it meets the carpets so I don't think she even knows what I did other than fix the drip and the cupboards . I did tell her I was going to do it, and she griped a bit, but the leak is fixed and I think she forgot lol.


If you have a reptile room, I would just run water to it. Tie in a line under the house, and fun a tap and for the RO, and drain it outside. Tell her your setting up a garden for her that self waters .