HELP! Care info on 4 month old Chamaeleo montium

[Cainschams]

Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species

http://www.cites.ec.gc.ca/eng/sct0/index_e.cfm

I am assuming you have all the necessary permits to go forth with this? If so just say so If not dont send your money. You will not get what you paid for. Most will not import only 2 animals. It is way too expensive to pay for the CITES documents, permits, international shipping, inspection fees, plus the animals themselves. It was 1000$ alone in all this not including the price of animals when I did an import last August.

Just because they are not inspected by one department does not mean another hasnt picked this duty up. The department of agriculture in the US no longer has to inspect the package on chameleons as long as US customs and FWS clears it.

I repeat!!!! If you do not have import/export liscence and these animals are supposedly showing up at your door you WILL be ripped off. I hope someone or yourself actually knows what it takes to import chameleons.

 

[Elizadolots]

There are only a few chameleons that require CITES permits.

http://www.cites.ec.gc.ca/listedecontrole/index.cfm?lang=e&fuseaction=scList.swFilterResult

Chamaeleonidae
Bradypodion spp.

Brookesia spp. (note)

Brookesia perarmata

Calumma spp.

Chamaeleo spp.

Furcifer spp.

The original poster said:

Well I'm sure they are ligit. They have sent all the documents insurance and everything and the vet and health certificates are coming with them with arrival.

It seems that the requirements for Canada are not as stringent as those for the United States. She comes across as knowledgeable and careful. I'm sure she appreciates the concern that she not get scammed.

Just as "likely problems with a marijuana sale" are very different in a place where it's legal than in a place where it's not legal, so problems importing a chameleon to a country where it is not regulated are going to be different than it would be to a country where there is heavy regulation.

 

[nightcrawler]

I hope everything goes well for you because this is my top two favorite chams. Hopefully you will get them on Thursday, and show us some pictures of the chams. Ill have my fingers crossed for you.

 

[Cainschams]

There are only a few chameleons that require CITES permits.

http://www.cites.ec.gc.ca/listedecontrole/index.cfm?lang=e&fuseaction=scList.swFilterResult



The original poster said:


It seems that the requirements for Canada are not as stringent as those for the United States. She comes across as knowledgeable and careful. I'm sure she appreciates the concern that she not get scammed.

Just as "likely problems with a marijuana sale" are very different in a place where it's legal than in a place where it's not legal, so problems importing a chameleon to a country where it is not regulated are going to be different than it would be to a country where there is heavy regulation.

Those are the Genus not individual species. However it does say you do not need a import permit for appendix II animals but they do need to come with the right export CITES documentation. With Cameroon not participating in CITES this should be interesting. However these animals still need to be inspected by CWS. They are not just going to show up at the door. This is where I am getting at. It is still very very expensive to only bring in two animals with shipping and inspection fees alone.....especially for someone who comes on a forum and sounds frantic about getting some knowledgeable information on a species.

Lets not compare this to a pot deal, please

 

[Elizadolots]

I'm sure the original poster appreciates being reminded that the CITES permits comes under the classification of "all documents".

I cannot find any reference to chameleons on the Canadian Wildlife Services website. http://www.cws-scf.ec.gc.ca/index_e.cfm

I don't find it at all unlikely that the seller can get a government permit to export the animal. That is all that is required on that end for the CITES permit.

Pot sales are a valid analogy because the laws vary wildly and someone in a country that outlaws pot might well overestimate the problems someone would have buying it in a country where it's legal.

Besides, chameleons are addictive.

My only concern is that this woman has been advised to "walk away" from this deal repeatedly...that advice seems to be based on American law which is not applicable to her situation.

I think it's great that people like you are making sure she does, in fact, know what "all" the documents need to be.

 

[CNorton]

Fair enough...good points made on both sides of the fence. I however seriously doubt that Andrea knows what "all the necessary documents" are. She has not stated specifically what papers she has or will be getting. Nor has she shared any details on the arrangements for payment.

I hope we can all learn from this situation and I hope the price for the lesson will not be too high.

 

[Cainschams]

I'm sure the original poster appreciates being reminded that the CITES permits comes under the classification of "all documents".

I never reminded them that. I asked them if they had all the necessary permits. I also told them "Legally you can not receive chameleons from another country unless you have the legal documents to do so". This was a general statement. I did say that then needed an import/export permit. Obviously they do not now. I do not think that is a good idea. Making someone apply for a permit (charging them or not) and being approved at least shows the importer has the capability to research what needs to be done to legally import an animal.

I cannot find any reference to chameleons on the Canadian Wildlife Services website. http://www.cws-scf.ec.gc.ca/index_e.cfm

Really? Because with the link you provided they can easily be found when navigating through the site. You also provided a quote of the "species".

I don't find it at all unlikely that the seller can get a government permit to export the animal. That is all that is required on that end for the CITES permit.

Me either. But I do find interesting how importing a species, from a country that does not participate in CITES regulations with one that does, goes about it. Not to mention it is highly unlikely for someone to lie and send false documents over the internet

Pot sales are a valid analogy because the laws vary wildly and someone in a country that outlaws pot might well overestimate the problems someone would have buying it in a country where it's legal.

Still not convinced. There are certain laws and restrictions for everything. Chameleons are not pot. Still not a good anology.

Besides, chameleons are addictive.

And you wonder why there are reptile export scammers? Seems to me the easiest prey to scam are those who are addicted and in a hobby where impulse buys probably make up the majority of purchases.

My only concern is that this woman has been advised to "walk away" from this deal repeatedly...that advice seems to be based on American law which is not applicable to her situation.

Well, keep worrying yourself that she is on a US based forum and getting most of the opinions from people in the US. There are quite a few members from other countries but the majority are in the US. Of course most of the advice is going to be based on US laws. I really do not see where it can differ too much besides not need a permit. Canada can not be letting anyone import a species without inspecting it in some way. Someone has to at least look at the paperwork to see if it is legit. And if they just look at the paperwork and not inspect the package, well I think that is a horrible decision for a country that participates in the CITES program. The program is to prevent species from becoming endangered from trade and this would allow anyone to import anything without any hassle as long as it came with the "right" paper work on the outside

 

[Kent67]

Wow. First of all, ALL chameleon species are covered under CITES. That means all trade in all species of chameleons between CITES member nations is (supposed to be) controlled. Cameroon is a member of CITES. Chamaeleo (Trioceros) montium was the only chameleon species with an annual quota the last time I looked, too. I don't know what the process would be like to get export permits from Cameroon but I do know that all importing countries must have the shipments inspected by their CITES Management Authority to make sure the shipments contain what they claim to.

Regardless of all that, West Africa is known to be a hotbed for international scams, particularly over the internet, because it is virtually impossible for them to be caught and prosecuted. It's hard enough for actual reptile importing businesses to get large shipments of these species from legit exporters in Cameroon. Why do you think these Cameroon species are so rare in Canada to begin with? I can't imagine this ending well but I do wish Andrea luck.

 

[andrea chameleon]

Yes, everyone seems to be so biased against Canada. I do not live in some igloo, i live right across from the US Detroit border. Canadian borders no longer require permits if you are IMPORTING. If you infact are the exporter you need an importing and exporting license and your CITES permit. All that my chams need to get across the border is their perfect health forms and vet checks making sure they are de paracited, which they are going to be arrived with. Again i will let everyone know what ends up happening on thursday when they are suposed to arrive. Thanks for all the info guys

 

[Kent67]

*Sigh* Yeah, everyone is against Canada.

From my friend Google:
http://helpmerick.com/fun_with_cameroon_pet_scams.htm
http://yaounde.usembassy.gov/scams_warning.html
http://www.fraudwatchers.org/forums/showthread.php?t=2458
http://forum.kijiji.ca/about6747661.html
http://www.nextdaypets.com/directory/dogs/forum/1461~6.aspx
http://www.ozdoggy.com.au/ozdoggy/profile.jsp?ozdoggyid=3557
http://www.petsonthenet.co.nz/scam


By the way, I typed in "Cameroon scams" and ALL the first hits were about pet scams. Sorry.

 

[Chris Anderson]

There are only a few chameleons that require CITES permits.

Of the 208 currently recognized chameleon species and subspecies, 190 of those species are CITES listed (189 on CITES Appendix II and 1 on CITES Appendix I) and require CITES documents to cross international lines. More importantly, Trioceros montium is included in those species that require CITES documents. The only species that are not CITES listed are those species in the genera Rieppeleon and Rhampholeon (with the exception of Rhampholeon spinosus which is considered Bradypodion spinosum, its former classification, by CITES and is thus included).

Canadian borders no longer require permits if you are IMPORTING. If you infact are the exporter you need an importing and exporting license and your CITES permit. All that my chams need to get across the border is their perfect health forms and vet checks making sure they are de paracited, which they are going to be arrived with.

I don't think anyone here was biased against Canada, its simply that we are more familiar with the regulatory bodies in the US. Your Canadian CITES Management Authority is the Canadian Wildlife Service (CWS) of Environment Canada (EC) and unfortunately you are seriously mistaken about what forms and permits you need for these chameleons to legally get into Canada.

CITES permits are permits that are issued by the exporting country but are required in order for the animals to leave or enter a country, including Canada. Here is a site that may be useful to you: http://www.cites.ec.gc.ca/ If you go to the Permits page and mouse over the Appendix II "Info and Permit" image, it states "Specimens to be imported into Canada must be accompanied by: a CITES export permit issued by the exporting country". Those permits must be inspected and approved upon importation and if you accept a shipment you know has CITES species that does not have CITES documents that have been properly inspected, you have violated international trade laws and will go to jail. These chameleons can not legal enter the country unless they are accompanied by a CITES permit and they are inspected.

A few months ago another forum member was targeted by someone offering the same deal in Cameroon. It was a scam. We are not attacking you, we are looking out for your wellbeing because we know that the likelihood of this being legit is slim to none. Perhaps if you'd be willing to post or email me the photos he sent you, I can verify that these photos are not published elsewhere (they often use photos from books or that they found on the net to try to prove they have animals they don't actually have).

As for care information, at 4 months of age, they should start to be cared for as the adults. Make sure to keep your humidity up but allow the cage to dry out between mistings and avoid high temperatures. Here are a couple threads with photos of my T. montium and babies:

https://www.chameleonforums.com/baby-t-montium-t-hoehnelii-t-quadricornis-27119/
https://www.chameleonforums.com/t-incornutus-t-montium-pics-31159/

Chris

 

[Trace]

Yes, everyone seems to be so biased against Canada. I do not live in some igloo, i live right across from the US Detroit border. Canadian borders no longer require permits if you are IMPORTING. If you infact are the exporter you need an importing and exporting license and your CITES permit. All that my chams need to get across the border is their perfect health forms and vet checks making sure they are de paracited, which they are going to be arrived with. Again i will let everyone know what ends up happening on thursday when they are suposed to arrive. Thanks for all the info guys

I'm Canadian. Maybe you will believe me?

Below is information Compiled by Roy Stockwell on the importation and exportation of reptiles to and from Canada.

US IMPORT/EXPORT INFO
For Americans Exporting from the U.S.A. (Canadians should be familiar with these steps too)
All animals leaving or entering the USA must be inspected by US fish & wildlife This is generally done at what is known as a designated port . If you are not located at a designated port you must contact your local branch of USF&W and arrange an inspection. At this point a document called a 3-177 will be completed. It is a declaration of import/export of wildlife. This must be done with all animals regardless of whether they are listed under the Washington Convention (CITES).
It is also possible and fairly common to have animals shipped first to a designated port for inspection and clearance, before heading on to the consignee. This is done when the shipper or recipient in the US is not near a designated port. It can however, sometimes get complicated and expensive because a broker can be required to transfer the shipment and arrange for fish&wildlife inspection. This is especially true if different air carriers are involved since Airlines are not obliged to move your cargo, especially into the hands of a competitive Airline. So if you need to hire a broker this can mean that your animals are being put into the hands of a middle man who might very well hate herps(or love them and steal your shipment). It's a bit scary to have someone opening your animals in the middle of their journey to your customer.

If the animals are CITES listed and are Appendix 2 you need to apply To the US department of the interior/F&W for a CITES export permit. This must then be stamped by a wildlife agent at the time of the inspection otherwise the permit is not valid...
You will also now need (since I think bout 97) a US fish and wildlife IMPORT EXPORT license... you need to apply for it. It is $100.00us and is good for only one year. If you are not getting your inspection at a Designated port, but are using a border port you may also be required to apply for what's called an "Exception to Designated Port"permit. It's now also $100US bucks and is good for 2 years.

For Canadians taking animals into or out of the USA

This also applies for Cameroon.

If you are taking animals across the border in a car, you need to apply for and obtain this US fish and wildlife IMPORT EXPORT license... and yes also the exception from designated port permit if you have more than just a few animals.

You must phone US F&W in advance and arrange for an inspection 48 hrs before you cross. An agent will be dispatched to the crossing of your choice(See the list of Border Ports) . You will be charged for the inspection. $55US standard, more if its CITES or outside of business hours.A 3-177 declaration will need to be presented at the time of the inspection. I recommend pre ordering this form from USF&W and filling them out ahead of time. It makes the wildlife agents happy and you are more likely to know the Scientific names, which must be shown on the declaration. It's also helpful to take a book with pictures to help verify the species.

If you are taking a lot of stuff into the US for personal delivery or to fly out of an American airport it may be considered a commercial shipment and this will also require a Customs Broker...I use PBB. (Peace Bridge Brokers)

Also, if you are taking CITES listed animals out of Canada you must first apply for and obtain a Canadian CITES Export permit. You will be required to prove legal origin to be granted this permit. Before crossing the border, you must first stop on the Canadian side and get Customs to validate it, otherwise it is not a legal CITES permit.

Please also read the links that Kent gave you.

Good luck.
Trace

 

[Elizadolots]

With Cameroon not participating in CITES this should be interesting.

Cameroon is a member of CITES.

hmm....I guess it's not so incredibly obvious what the status of Cameroon is..

Really? Because with the link you provided they can easily be found when navigating through the site. You also provided a quote of the "species".

The list I quoted was from the CITES page. The Canadian Wildlife Service does not seem overly concerned with reptiles. There is one .pdf file on toxicology because it seems they are losing reptiles and amphibians to environmental hazards, but mostly they seem worried about birds and mammals (mostly birds).

By the way, I typed in "Cameroon scams" and ALL the first hits were about pet scams. Sorry.

That's funny because I typed in "Cameroon + chameleon + scams" and the first hit was this discussion.

Perhaps if you'd be willing to post or email me the photos he sent you, I can verify that these photos are not published elsewhere (they often use photos from books or that they found on the net to try to prove they have animals they don't actually have).

I think this is an excellent precaution that everyone buying any pet requiring shipping should take. It's possible that people here would recognize the pictures if they are not legit*. There are also "reverse image" searches which will look for your image on the internet. Tin Eye is one I've used: http://www.tineye.com/

People have been scammed buying puppies online. That does not, however, mean that all puppies offered for sale on websites are frauds.

*************
*it's even possible that the pictures could be of animals that belong to members of the board.

 

[Cainschams]

hmm....I guess it's not so incredibly obvious what the status of Cameroon is..

I could of swore I had read they were not a member. I guess that is what I get for posting way too late at night when I should be in bed

You know, this reminds me of a thread where an "unknown" pardalis locale was being debated over when in fact some really knew where it came from. Lots of questions asked and no answers or just run around answers. I think I will just, as Ryan would say, put my foot in my mouth. We only want the OP to be cautious and aware. I hope they get what they paid for.

 

[adamkwas]

Did your T. montium arrive yet?

 

[james L]

Are they here or what?

 

[Janka]

I'd like to know how this turned out as well. Did you get your chams?