Help! Chameleon oversleeping?

[Heymaleia]

Hi, all! My name is Maleia and it’s nice to meet you all. First time poster, so I hope I’ve done this right

Chameleon Info:

• Your Chameleon - 2 year old old red barred panther. Male, named Handsome.
• Handling - 1 and a half years.
• Feeding - Handsome eats large crickets and has a very regular appetite. He usually eats 10-20 every other day (depending on his mood).
• Supplements - They are gut loaded with Fluker’s Orange Cubes (water and vitamins). I dust them with Rep-Cal calcium once weekly.
• Watering - Automated sprinkler system (Exo Terra Monsoon rainfall system) that sprays the cage for two minutes every four hours. Additionally, he gets a shower in one of his favorite plants once or twice a week.
• Fecal Description - I was told he had a parasite that was causing runny fecal at his last vet visit. He was given medicine (every other day for three weeks, skipping the second week, as recommended by the vet) and his fecal matter returned to normal for a while. It is suddenly runny again so I will be starting another cycle of the medicine.
• History - Handsome has a mild MBD, as identified by his vet (lesson learned: not all advertised chameleon lights provide UVB rays, read the small print before buying). He has no obvious deformities and strong bones but he is small for an adult chameleon. Still, the vet told me that he is otherwise healthy since he is strong, (was) active, and has good eyes. I have since made vet approved changes to his husbandry.

Cage Info:

• Cage Type - Large screen cage. 42 by 24 inches.
• Lighting - Daytime: Zilla Mini Halogen Heat & UVB combo fixture (mini halogen reptile bulb 50 watt in day blue and a Zoo Med Reptisun 5.0 Uvb mini compact fluorescent bulb). Nighttime: Zilla silver reflector dome with a purple with Zoo Med moonlite reptile bulb (I’m not 100% sure on that moonlite bulb. I cannot find the order or the box to confirm. It could be a different brand but either way it is a bluish bulb). Lights come on at 8 and go off at 11 with an automatic timer. Before the lights were automated these were his normal waking and sleeping hours.
• Temperature and Humidity- Basking area: 85 degrees. Upper cage temperature: 75 - 80 degrees measured by a Zoo Med analog dual thermometer/humidity gauge. Lower temperature: 68.5 degrees measured by a digital thermometer. 50% humidity. Lowest temperature over night is 68 degrees.
• Plants - Pothos vines, ficus, and an umbrella tree (to play in when outside of his cage).
• Placement - Cage is sitting on the floor, located in a corner of the dining room between living and kitchen.
• Location - Tampa, Florida

Current Problem - I took Handsome to the vet in January and found that he had a parasite and also mild MBD. The vet told me that I caught the MBD quickly and that Handsome was still extremely healthy aside from being small for his age. She was actually very surprised and pleased to see how healthy he is despite the condition. Since making the vet’s recommendations Handsome has started to grow quite a bit and he’s shed several times since then as well, despite being 2 years old. He was also parasite free and having normal bowel movements until now. He is, for the most part, doing very well. But I am very connected to him and can tell something is off and isnt just him being fussy.
Handsome does not have a normal fecal sample again, but I still have the leftover medicine (Ponazuril AQ) from our previous vet visit specifically for that. I do, however, want to try and find out what is causing the runny stool. It starts out as normal brown and soft looking fecal matter but then a goopy and grayish part appears before his urine sac comes. Could it be diet? We get our crickets from local pet stores. I’ve tried small mealworms, which he got bored with quickly; fruit flies, which he ignored; and superworms, which he will only occasionally eat. The only thing I have gotten him to consistently eat are the crickets. He has a healthy appetite as long as it’s crickets.
The other (bigger) problem is that I’ve noticed he is sleeping a lot. He has taken naps during the day before, but within the last week I’ve found him sleeping for long periods of time. His grip is still strong, his appetite is fine, he is not dehydrated, and once you pick him up he becomes bright and active. But if you leave him be for an extended period of time he will go to sleep. When sleeping, sometimes he is darkly colored (forest green and brown) and sometimes he is bright (lime green, red, blue, orange) but I can not see anything distinguishing between the two (like light, placement, outside environment, diet). He would sleep all day if I let him, I think. When I wake him up he seems a little groggy and lazy for a few minutes (probably normal) and then he’s active and playful again.
Hoping someone can give me any advice about his stool and whether my oversleeping concerns are valid. Please let me know if you need more information from me! I’ve included some pictures of his cage for reference. All pictures were taken today with the exception of the very bright orange picture, which was taken 3 months ago for reference.
Thank you all in advance for any information you can give me!!!
-Maleia & Handsome

 

[ChamomilleCame]

Looking at your light schedule, he may be oversleeping because he isn't getting enough sleep time. Chams need 12 hours of sleep. 13-14 during the winter. If he's "napping" during the day, that's definitely a sign of something wrong.
However, I don't think this is the only problem. You say you supplement with Rep-Cal? I'm assuming just the multivits? If so, you really need to be supplementing him with plain calcium daily, especially if he has MBD. You also need to supplement twice a month with calcium+d3 and the multivits (at different times).
He does not need a night bulb (it's hot as hell in Florida). Temperature drops for these guys at night is extremely beneficial. Also, how long have you had your UVB?
Lastly, I would start gutloading your crickets with other types of food. They need nutrients that are not in store bought cricket food. You can search that up on the forum and you'll get mounds of info on what is best to feed insects. If you can, I'd also recommend buying other types of insects. Imagine living your life on pasta.
His issue could very well be parasites. I had a cham who contracted parasites and slept a lot. The MBD could also attribute to this.
It's frustrating dealing with a sick cham, but I can tell you that those simple tweaks in husbandry will make a difference in the long run.
I'd go in a few weeks to the vet again if he still seems sickly to you.
Best of luck.

 

[Heymaleia]

Thank you SO incredibly much for your quick response! I can already tell that Handsome and I are going to love this site/forum J I appreciate your care and information!

Feeding

So, are the following brands acceptable as far as calcium goes?

Zoo Med Reptile Calcium without Vitamin D3, 8-Ounce
Zoo Med Reptile Calcium with Vitamin D3, 8-Ounce

And I should dust his crickets with these right before eating (which is what I’ve been doing), or is it like gut loading where I should be dusting AND feeding the crickets 24 hours before he consumes them? Handsome usually refuses to eat every single day- he is regularly every other day with his eating habits but he eats a lot. Is the every other day eating alright? Every now and then he will go a couple days without eating anything- but that’s rare and even when he does it he doesn’t show any behavioral issues.

Also, have you or anyone else ever experienced the level of pickiness that Handsome shows with this food? I’ve tried rotating mealworms, super worms, and fruit flies to keep him interested but he will quite literally search the house to find his crickets when I let him out of his cage if I haven’t given him crickets in a while.

Temperature

So, with our AC on and set to 68 at night, he will be alright without his bulb? What is the lowest temperature drop that is safe for him, just so that I know and can keep an eye on the temp at night?

Parasites

Any guesses to how Handsome could have contracted parasites again? He doesn’t at all outwardly bothered by it but it has to be terrible. I’d like to keep him from that, if I can. Perhaps it’s something to do with his food (and getting them from the pet store)?

I would really like to get him off crickets almost entirely because the vet gave me almost the same analogy as your pasta one (she said salad…), but Handsome isn’t having it so that will be a trial and error process. I hate to see him go too long without food so I always eventually give in and give him what he wants- what is the longest chams can go without eating? I'm hoping that perhaps he will get hungry and try new foods but I don’t want to withhold If he's hungry..

It’s not so much frustrating as it is worrying. Some people bond with their cats or dogs or kids but Handsome is for me. He chose me when we first met, he can (and will) find me in a room full of people, and he has what we call “Mom colors” that only come out when he sees me (might sound weird but we’ve tested it for fun). So, whatever it takes! I will go make the additional changes to his husbandry and update with his progress in a few weeks. These are easy fixes so I hope we’ll see some improvement soon. Thanks again for your information. I apologize for all of my questions, I am the worrying sort but it keeps him happy and (mostly) healthy.

You are the best! Thanks again!

- Handsome and Maleia

 

[alphakenc]

The other (bigger) problem is that I’ve noticed he is sleeping a lot.

Try take him outside when its a sunny day,that will benefit the cham versus he sleep in the cage all day,hope this help a bit.

 

[Andee]

You want to dust right before feeding. And his eating every other day is normal for his age. The lowest temp drop these guys can handle is 60-65 f. An adult cham can go without food for 2 weeks if they are healthy. He is most likely getting his parasites from his crickets. Where do you buy them? If they are poorly kept, such as dirty, they are more likely to have parasites. Crickets make a good staple feeder but he needs preferably 5 feeders through out the week. I would look into getting roaches, keeping the crickets, getting some soft bodied worms like silkworms and hornworms, super worms, maybe stick insects, black soldier fly larvae and the flies themselves. There's tons of feeders out there, even more than I listed.

 

[Davecameos]

Zoo Med Reptile Calcium without Vitamin D3, 8-Ounce
Zoo Med Reptile Calcium with Vitamin D3, 8-Ounce

Yes they are good products.
He is 2 years old. He does not need to eat everyday. It is better if he does every other day and even 3 times per week. He will enjoy more food and be healthier.

I agree with previous posts.
Light on for 12 hours. No lights at night at all. Chams can sense any source of light and they will not rest properly. A night drop in temperature is good for their metabolism.

Vitamins schedule depends on brand but normally is every fortnight or once a month.
calcium without d3 is important for him and the insects should be dusted in most feedings. Then you can use calcium with d3 twice per month.
Hope this helps and he gets better.

 

[Davecameos]

Forgot to mention you may be better using a t5 uv tube instead of coil for a better gradient.

 

[Daypaul]

Sorry if I repeat something others have said I'm in a hurry. Remove the nighttime light there is no need for it and is mossy likely causing him not to sleep well. Also ordering feeders online is cheaper and has way more variety. Get some pheonix worms for sure as they will help with calcium. Good luck he is a good looking cham

 

[Daypaul]

Also a couple more perches under the lights wouldn't hurt.

 

[MeruJack]

You have received great advise.

To summarize:
Absolutely NO light at night
Daytime lights on for TWELVE HOURS only
A night time drop in temperature to mid 60's is VERY desirable
UVB light should be changed EVERY 6 MONTHS so consider getting a new one
Feed crickets & OTHER FEEDERS lots of fresh GREEN VEGGIES (not orange cubes)
Dust feeders with calcium right before every feeding (except Sundays, for example)
On the first and third Sundays of the month, dust feeders with calcium WITH D3
On the second and fourth Sundays, dust feeders with a multivitamin


I think just making the first two changes with his lighting may make a world of difference!!! Good luck!

 

[Heymaleia]

Update:
HELP!!!
I'm about to take Handsome to the vet. I'm in a panic.
Handsome's left eye is closed. He CAN open it but it's clearly irritating him. He keeps rubbing it on me, leaves, twigs, anything. I gave him a warm bath and showered him and he enjoyed both but his eye is still a problem. Sometimes he closes both but it's primarily the one.
At one point he closed his eye and pushed it out till it was double its normal size and was frantically rubbing it. It looked like it was going to pop out.
Advice?

 

[Andee]

Sounds like he needs his eye flushed. Taking him to the vet is a good idea

 

[Daypaul]

I know it looks freaky but he is trying to clean his eye, don't get to worried bit yes task him to the vet he should not be doing this all the time, once every other day or so during misting my female veiled flushes her eyes with water, first time I saw it it freaked me out, looks weird doesnt it? good luck to you, he hopefully just has something in it instead of another issue, yall are in my thoughts.
Dave

 

[Heymaleia]

Thanks guys. Back from the vet. Handsome is PISSED, poor guy. Vet mentioned the following:

Our recent move 4 months ago likely caused a difference in water quality. Impurities could be affecting him. We've gone back to using bottled distilled water.

When we fixed his UVB bulbs back in February at our last vet visit, he started growing and shedding more. Almost twice a month. It's possible he's starting another (difficult) shed which is also making him grumpy and lethargic and irritating his eyes.

Vitamin A deficiency, which is common cause of eye problems, apparently. He was given a tiny shot of Vit A by the vet.

The vet also drew a blood sample and is getting back to me on Monday. We got liquid calcium and veggies to gut load his crickets. New bulbs (no more coil) and vitamin a via beta keratin are in the works. No more nighttime lights and we're also going to bring up his humidity from 50% to 60%. I got some super worms again just to change up his food. I'll order some Phoenix worms too, thanks for the suggestion.

These things seem to cover husbandry, feeding, and MBD/vitamin deficiencies (if that's the issue). Does this seem to be a rounded plan of attack? Am I missing anything?

You guys are amazing. Thank you so much for sticking with me through this.

(I attached a photo of Handsome after his shot. Look at those angry and stressed colors. Poor guy! )