He's looking good day 3

I cleaned it a few nights ago and don't use substrate but I will check it again. Oftentimes he doesn't want to be anywhere but on me. I don't force him to do anything but after he is handled for a few mins he happily hose to his cage. I don't think there is any problem but I will try something different. Thanks for letting me know.
 
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I cleaned it a few nights ago and don't use substrate but I will check it again. Oftentimes he doesn't want to be anywhere but on me. I don't force him to do anything but after he is handled for a few mins he happily hose to his cage. I don't think there is any problem but I will try something different. Thanks for letting me know.
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Again, a novice who refuses to learn the true nature of the creature they are caring for. He is not a poodle. Treat him as a poodle at your own--actually his--peril.
 
I'm done here. Good luck.

headbang.gif
 
jajeanpierre said:
Again, a novice who refuses to learn the true nature of the creature they are caring for. He is not a poodle. Treat him as a poodle at your own--actually his--peril.
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I do not treat him like a poodle and let him do what he likes to do. I'm very offended that you think I cannot raise a chameleon and have done everything in my capability to make sure he is comfortable. I am going to change the cage structure to see how it works out and give him some space to adjust and see how it works.
 
jajeanpierre said:
This is how I feel when I read a post like yours above:

View attachment 173959

Why do I bother?

What a colossal waste of my time trying to help anyone. I may help one person and then ten of you show up--arrogant in their belief they know all but ignorant of what they don't know and what they need to know. [And before you go ballistic suggesting I insulted you, I suggest you look up the definition of the word because I am sick and tired of having to change my perfectly correct use of the English language in order to not offend the many people on these internet forums who have a Grade 3 level vocabulary and are too lazy to expand their vocabulary. Here's the definition--Ignorant: lacking knowledge or awareness in general; uneducated or unsophisticated.]

It is one thing to question standard practices to find out the why behind how something is done but quite another to completely dismiss standard practices, citing only a solitary breeder who you believe in.

I am about to spend a lot of time writing and explaining some things to you knowing--this is the part that really gets me--knowing you will most likely just insult me as you have insulted others. But I do it to try to reach someone else here, so here I go.

Okay, here's the deal with chameleons. They are not social. They don't nurture their young. They do not form pair bonds. They are extremely territorial. There is nothing about their mating ritual that suggests the development of any sort of bond. They will not form an emotional attachment to anything, let alone a predator such as a human. That is their biology--you cannot change the inherent nature of the animal.

Next to know, chameleons rely on being unnoticed by predators to avoid predation. They do not have a well developed "fight or flight" response. Their fleeing behavior tends to be dodging around branches or dropping to the ground and laying still for a bit. Their fighting (of a predator) involves inflating their lungs to appear bigger, gaping, lunging and possibly biting. I am always surprised at how rarely a gaping terrified wild caught will actually risk contact with a predator (me) by biting.

Having worked with many animals that were imported as wild caught adults, I can assure you that few actually exhibit any "fight or flight" behaviors. They often look quite tame and docile. For example, I recently took a young, recently imported wild caught to the vet. He (seemingly) calmly climbed out of his travel box and quietly sat on my hand as the vet examined him. No defensive posturing. H is color was normal relaxed colors. By all appearances, he looked and acted very tame, but looks can be deceiving. There is absolutely no way this animal could possibly be calm. Chameleons spend their life hiding from predators. They are ambush predators, mostly waiting for food to come to them. Even a chameleon's walk mimics leaves shaking in a breeze. Everything about them is about is hiding and camouflage. This animal at the vet's was exposed with no cover in bright lights with two big scary monsters looking at it. Yet, he looked very very calm and relaxed.

So, understand that what you think is going on might not be happening at all.

The next thing to really understand is the effect stress has on an organism, any organism. Stress is not an emotion; understand that. Stress is not how they feel. Stress manifests itself in a cascade of physiological internal responses. It is not something the animal has control over. It is an unseen internal response to some stimuli in the environment and doesn't disappear immediately after the stressor has been removed.

Not all stress is entirely bad. Mating is stressful for animals. Stress can be the obvious such as an acute fear response which would be elicited when being grabbed by a predator (such as a human predator taking the chameleon out of the cage). Stress can also be chronic and at low levels such as housing the animal in inappropriate conditions/temperatures/size of cage/lack of cover and on and on. Stress happens in life but chameleons are particularly susceptible to the effects of stress. The sad part is that few people see it or see it coming.

Stress is a biological response.

When an animal is stressed, there are many physiological responses caused by the release of hormones. Heart rates increase, blood supply is diverted away from the digestive track, blood pressure increases, cortisol is released which affects the blood sugar levels and most importantly, suppresses the immune system.

This is the kicker: stress--both chronic low grade stress and acute stressful events--suppresses the immune system. This is why chameleons are so hard to keep alive--because most people keep them in situations of chronic stress and they die at too young an age.

Bottom line, the people you are dismissing are worried that you are killing your chameleon. It won't be today and it won't be tomorrow. You, like others that insist they can make a chameleon into a poodle, will not even recognize the role they played in their animals ill health and early demise.

I work with wild caughts. Battered, parasite infested newly imported wild caughts. Chameleons with bones exposed. Face rubs to the bone. Severely dehydrated chameleons. They don't tend to die. I give them what I know they need and they heal themselves. I don't even routinely give worming medications even though I KNOW they are loaded with parasites--I let their own robust immune system deal with it.

I hope you understand I am writing this not to be the winner in a pissing contest but to help educate people on how to keep chameleons alive and healthy for their full life, not just a year or two of ill health. @jpowell86, care to wade in or are you too tired to deal with this one more time.

One other thing before I forget--a chameleon that eagerly comes out of its cage is not showing you anything about its tameness or comfort in your presence. Remember the animal that calmly walked onto my hand at the vet? Sometimes the cage is so inappropriate and the animal so stressed they will try to escape the cage. My wild caughts rubbed their faces to the bone to escape their caging at the exporters.
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What a very poignant well thought-out post. You have more patience and tolerance than me. I can no longer deal with ignorance and those that do not wish to learn. Obviously some here believe they have all the answers but hopefully others without blinders can review this post and take away value. Sadly we seem to repeat these posts frequently and I need that head on wall emoji.
 
This is all stupid. People should treat a chameleon based on its personality. My cham just had a friendly out going personality. I understand you don't treat you chams like I treat mine but their different chameleons with different personalities and I would do anything for my cham. Some people think all chams are the same but that's not true. I treat all my chams based on personality and their just fine. I feel bad for the people who cannot understand their way isn't always the right way. When raising a cham there is no right or wrong. It's all trial and error. I'm not trying to be offensive in any way and just want to put out there that my chams are not like anyone else's chams.
 
Nursemaia said:
What a very poignant well thought-out post. You have more patience and tolerance than me. I can no longer deal with ignorance and those that do not wish to learn. Obviously some here believe they have all the answers but hopefully others without blinders can review this post and take away value. Sadly we seem to repeat these posts frequently and I need that head on wall emoji.
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That's why we all love you Maia your grace lol , your care is amazing so is your advice . Frances is where she is because of all your help . so many helped but you a whole lot :love:.
 
All usernames were taken said:
My cham can always craves attention trying to get me through his cage. He is very social with me and is so sweet. He also enjoys the occasional silk worms.

Of course I read what you wrote and I also think it's a good idea to socialize him. If he will willingly come to you then he is fine. I only keep him out an hour max and he loves to climb on the tree I set up for him.
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You are not socializing him. He is not an animal that has the capacity to understand socialization, nor appreciate it. What you are doing is forcing it to adapt to a stressful situation by repeatedly exposing it to the same stressor (you).

All too often people talk about how their chameleon "wants" to be with them, how the chameleon "needs" to get out of the cage to be with them. 99.9% of the time, the reason for this is inadequate housing. The chameleon is seeking respite from the stress of its living conditions.

If we were talking larger, more personable animals like varanids or iguanas, I'd be more inclined to agree with your logic. Unfortunately, we are talking about small, nervous by nature prey animals that prefer to live a solitary, sedentary and predictable life. You can't undo millions of years of biological evolution in seven days. It just doesn't work like that.
 
wavingsnail said:
You are not socializing him. He is not an animal that has the capacity to understand socialization, nor appreciate it. What you are doing is forcing it to adapt to a stressful situation by repeatedly exposing it to the same stressor (you).

All too often people talk about how their chameleon "wants" to be with them, how the chameleon "needs" to get out of the cage to be with them. 99.9% of the time, the reason for this is inadequate housing. The chameleon is seeking respite from the stress of its living conditions.

If we were talking larger, more personable animals like varanids or iguanas, I'd be more inclined to agree with your logic. Unfortunately, we are talking about small, nervous by nature prey animals that prefer to live a solitary, sedentary and predictable life. You can't undo millions of years of biological evolution in seven days. It just doesn't work like that.
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Chams all have their personalities. What you are saying is that every cham is the same. That is not true. Chams can be socialized and if you care for them as if their just show animals of course their not going to be friendly. I provide my chams with everything they need. All living animals deserve the proper care and affection. You must not have read the post where I stated I would be cleaning and changing his cage set up. I'm sorry if this is offensive but I give all my animals love and affection. I don't care about what anyone has to say about this.
 
I must confess that jajeanpierre's description, perfectly describes my male panther's behavior. He tries to hide as described when he sees me, and I feel that he only climbed on me to get out of his small cage. Yesterday, he quickly climbed off my shoulder into the large cage.
 
WAMBO said:
I must confess that jajeanpierre's description, perfectly describes my male panther's behavior. He tries to hide as described when he sees me, and I feel that he only climbed on me to get out of his small cage. Yesterday, he quickly climbed off my shoulder into the large cage.
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It may be that his cage is slighttly big because even though he is pretty old and I won't have him for much longer he still is very tiny for his cage this goes for my 2 chams 1 baby and 1 oldie
 
All usernames were taken said:
Chams all have their personalities. What you are saying is that every cham is the same. That is not true. Chams can be socialized and if you care for them as if their just show animals of course their not going to be friendly. I provide my chams with everything they need. All living animals deserve the proper care and affection. You must not have read the post where I stated I would be cleaning and changing his cage set up. I'm sorry if this is offensive but I give all my animals love and affection. I don't care about what anyone has to say about this.
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I'll be curious to see if his behavior changes when his enclosure does.

Look, I'm not saying chameleons can't or shouldn't be handled. They can, and they will, like I already said, adapt to it. They will never be personable like a bearded dragon, tegu, or monitor has the potential to be (and frankly beardies seem sort of bland when compared to the other two species in terms of personality). I think it is important to build up some sort of level of trust and rapport with your chameleon, because there will be times when you need to handle and examine it. I'm not saying these are like fish in an aquarium, strictly "look, but don't touch" pets, but they're similar. All too often keepers project their own feelings onto the chameleon, feelings that a chameleon just isn't capable of having. But people do that with all of their pets. I'm horrible about it with my dogs, and my wife gives me a hard time about it often.

@Kristen Wilkins gave several good examples of members who regularly handle their chameleons and have built a very trusting relationship with them. Unfortunately, they seem to be the exception that proves the rule. I wish you the best with your chameleon, and I don't want you to feel like you are being ganged up on or offending anyone with your thoughts, opinions or ideas. Sharing those things with one another is one of the exact reasons these forums exist, which is why members such as myself share them so freely.

Take care.
 
Make love not war guys.

First: I am by no means saying my chameleon is the "special" chameleon. I'm not even going to argue a mesh cage over a glass cage. I personally don't use glass but because I personally had a bad experience with it. But if someone/people are having a fine time with it then okay fine.

Second: I'm not saying anyone is right or wrong either. I just want to say that everyone has their own experience with reptiles and chameleons especially. No two chameleon is ever the same etc. Even two of the best breeders would have similar experiences but not stories. While some may have more skill when approaching the subject each person had to learn from their mistakes and continue learning throughout. Now while I personally agree that maybe he should have been in his cage longer to warm up to a new environment, I think there was a nicer way to approach this then how it's been approached. We don't have to just say your wrong end of story blah blah blah. But you could have said something like "hey you should try letting him be even if he is used to you because technically he is still in a new home" or "a lot of chameleons actually end up accidentally eating their substrate and become impacted" etc. Don't forget humans in their most basic form are animals too and if we feel backed into a corner we are likely to bar our teeth. If you're tired of constantly seeing these types of threads then don't respond instead of coming off as rude or better than thou. The owner at the end of the day is still going to want to do what the owner wants to do. Not to mention, who said that the breeder wasn't a very reputable breeder? For all we know it could very well be someone on this forum who we all know and like. Just be considerate and chose your words nicely guys.

To the starter of this thread: Good luck with your chameleon. I hope he lives a long happy life and you are able to take good care of him.
 
wavingsnail said:
I'll be curious to see if his behavior changes when his enclosure does.

Look, I'm not saying chameleons can't or shouldn't be handled. They can, and they will, like I already said, adapt to it. They will never be personable like a bearded dragon, tegu, or monitor has the potential to be (and frankly beardies seem sort of bland when compared to the other two species in terms of personality). I think it is important to build up some sort of level of trust and rapport with your chameleon, because there will be times when you need to handle and examine it. I'm not saying these are like fish in an aquarium, strictly "look, but don't touch" pets, but they're similar. All too often keepers project their own feelings onto the chameleon, feelings that a chameleon just isn't capable of having. But people do that with all of their pets. I'm horrible about it with my dogs, and my wife gives me a hard time about it often.

@Kristen Wilkins gave several good examples of members who regularly handle their chameleons and have built a very trusting relationship with them. Unfortunately, they seem to be the exception that proves the rule. I wish you the best with your chameleon, and I don't want you to feel like you are being ganged up on or offending anyone with your thoughts, opinions or ideas. Sharing those things with one another is one of the exact reasons these forums exist, which is why members such as myself share them so freely.

Take care.
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Not to get off topic here but you said something that made me chuckle. The look don't touch fish aquarium thing. My dad hand feeds his fish every day and his eel too. He has one fish that follows his hand around if it's in the tank because he thinks there is food in it. I tell him all the time his hands are dirty but w.e. Not trying to pick a fight I just thought it was funny this was brought up because we were just talking about it.
 
CharlieCharmingo said:
Not to get off topic here but you said something that made me chuckle. The look don't touch fish aquarium thing. My dad hand feeds his fish every day and his eel too. He has one fish that follows his hand around if it's in the tank because he thinks there is food in it. I tell him all the time his hands are dirty but w.e. Not trying to pick a fight I just thought it was funny this was brought up because we were just talking about it.
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Thats so funny and cute
 
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