How do I regiment/dose reptaid used as precaution?

[Chamero]

So I finally got some reptaid and am excited to use it.

My chameleon has not been confirmed for Coccidia but I want to administer Reptaid as a precautionary measure.

The directions say two 10-day regiments with a break of 2 days in between.

My guy is 170g, so have been giving him 1.5ml every day.

Im on the 4th day and am just wondering if this is correct.

Should I dose less if it is just for a precaution? Less frequency?

 

[lisa h]

If you've decided to use it, then follow the directions as written. Do not dose less, or at a frequency other than what is stated. The instructions are written that way because that's the way it works best.

 

[chams1]

Does the cham show any signs or sypmtoms of anything or is there reason for concern or anything wrong with it? If not, then you should probably be waiting for the fecal to come back before you just give it to him for no reason.

Otherwise, did you read the directions that came with the bottle? It spells out the dosage exactly and it is based on the weight of the cham. I don't have the directions right in front of me, but if I remember correctly, I believe 1.5ml is way too much. Please refer to the directions that came with the bottle to be sure.

 

[Chamero]

Yea my mistake. It is .15ml for a 150g reptile.

Which I have been using.

My guy is 170g so Ive been using the 1.5ml.

I know the directions are there and I have been following them but was just wondering if there is a difference between administering as a precaution and for recovery.

As of now I am going to do the two 10 day regiments, unless someone recommends otherwise.

 

[draetish]

I've heard and have done on occassion, not regularly that you give doses first 3 days of each month as pre-caution. Personally I would not do the two 10 day regiman unless there is a need for it. To me it seems to be a waste and I wouldn't want it not to work if and when I would need it. JMO.

 

[Chamero]

Ok, Today was the 4th consecutive day, so I was thinking of stopping, or at least slowing it down.

Now I am debating whether I should do two regiments a month, or two regiments separated by a few days.

 

[chams1]

Once again, it would probably be best to wait and see how the fecal comes back. It could be that you may be giving it to your cham for nothing, at which point I would stop it altogether. Once you see how the fecal comes back, then I would (again) follow the directions.

 

[Chamero]

I agree it would be best to get a fecal done first, but am trying to eliminate having to get two done.

I want to just administer the meds then get one at the end to see if he has any Coccidia.

Im assuming he has some amount of parasites since he hasnt been to a vet in over a year and is caged outdoors. He is also fed wild caught bugs on occasion.

Without a fecal first, what would the recommended dose be? (as a precautionary)

 

[chams1]

I agree it would be best to get a fecal done first, but am trying to eliminate having to get two done.

I want to just administer the meds then get one at the end to see if he has any Coccidia.

Im assuming he has some amount of parasites since he hasnt been to a vet in over a year and is caged outdoors. He is also fed wild caught bugs on occasion.

Without a fecal first, what would the recommended dose be? (as a precautionary)

I don't even know where to begin here.

#1: If you agree, then get the fecal done (especially since that's what you should be doing anyway).
#2: You can't assume anything. I have had WC's that were free of parasites when they came in, so you certainly can't assume that just because your cham has been living outside and eating WC bugs that it has coccidia.
#3: If you are going to be cutting corners with your cham and not giving it the proper care (which includes getting it fecals), then you shouldn't be owning one because you are doing it a great disservice.

I am not advising against the use of Reptaid. I have used it and do use it myself (and even sell it at my booths) because I think it is a fantastic product. However, even the Gesangs (producers of Reptaid) would agree here that you should get the fecal done first to confirm that the cham does, in deed, have coccidia prior to administering it. There is no sence in giving the cham something is doesn't need or just because you want to "try" it.

 

[FFSTRescue]

I always give my WC imports (and some stressed CB) Reptaid, not only for the parasites that are latent and not shedding at the time a fecal may be done, but because the cloves and other natural ingredients in the Reptaid help boost the immune system increasing the white blood cell efficacy in fighting infection, because stress causes the body to lose its ability to fight infection, and we are in different environments than where the animal originally came from and therefore are exposed to different pathogens.
Also here is another post I made about fecals.
https://www.chameleonforums.com/notes-fecals-43715/

 

[zwhitman]

I would seriously question why anyone would use this stuff. If your animal is sick and you believe in homeopathy, sure why not, but to give a healthy animal a bunch of substances it would never come across in nature seems off to me.

I find that people are often overly concerned with GI parasites. Most animals, and lots of people have them and go about their perfectly healthy lives. Consider, if your cham is healthy then he is obviously either parasite free, or in homeostasis with the bugs that he is carrying. If it aint broke...

I believe it is FAR more important to keep your cages clean, and your chameleon in a healthy, stress free environment so that his immune system can do its job.

 

[FFSTRescue]

I would seriously question why anyone would use this stuff. If your animal is sick and you believe in homeopathy, sure why not, but to give a healthy animal a bunch of substances it would never come across in nature seems off to me.

I find that people are often overly concerned with GI parasites. Most animals, and lots of people have them and go about their perfectly healthy lives. Consider, if your cham is healthy then he is obviously either parasite free, or in homeostasis with the bugs that he is carrying. If it aint broke...

I believe it is FAR more important to keep your cages clean, and your chameleon in a healthy, stress free environment so that his immune system can do its job.

I agree, I never give it to my healthy CB chams that I have purchased, unless they show signs of sickness, or one of their many fecals comes up positive. But there is about a 99% chance that a WC is "sick", which the term can be used loosely. I have yet to see a WC that isn't "sick" due to the reasons that I mentioned in my previous post, along with the parasite abundance exacerbated by stress, which is why I believe that Reptaid should always be used in unacclimated WC chameleons, unless variables suggest otherwise, such as if an infection is so severe, antibiotics are recommended.

 

[zwhitman]

First off I should say that I have never used the stuff, so maybe you are right and it does wonders. But what I have done is acclimated thousands of WC chameleons without it

I agree with you completely that many wild caught chameleons need some medical attention and TLC.

What I don't agree with is the safety of the product. You have absolutely no idea that this product does anything beneficial at all for reptiles. Do a quick search on many of the ingredients and you will find that there is considerable doubt to their efficacy and several may be downright harmful. Even if the ingredients do have some effect on people, or mamals, no one knows how reptiles metabolize these substances. You are giving grapfruit seed extract (Sounds all nice and organic but its usually synthetic), and alcohol, to an animal that likely has renal damage due to long term dehydration during the importation process.

Wild chameleons are very hardy *if* you really give them what they need. I am not saying you don't, by the way, your chams sound like its doing fine. I think that your cham is probably doing well under your care in spite of the reptaid.

Like I said before, I think that there are many more important factors in getting wild caught animals to succeed.

The reptaid website is pretty fond of bashing "traditional" drugs. But the fact is that modern anti-parasitic drugs are very safe and very effective against a wide range of bugs.

Lastly I will quote their website

"*These statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. This product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease."

Sorry for the thread hijack...

 

[FFSTRescue]

First off I should say that I have never used the stuff, so maybe you are right and it does wonders. But what I have done is acclimated thousands of WC chameleons without it

I agree with you completely that many wild caught chameleons need some medical attention and TLC.

What I don't agree with is the safety of the product. You have absolutely no idea that this product does anything beneficial at all for reptiles. Do a quick search on many of the ingredients and you will find that there is considerable doubt to their efficacy and several may be downright harmful. Even if the ingredients do have some effect on people, or mamals, no one knows how reptiles metabolize these substances. You are giving grapfruit seed extract (Sounds all nice and organic but its usually synthetic), and alcohol, to an animal that likely has renal damage due to long term dehydration during the importation process.

Wild chameleons are very hardy *if* you really give them what they need. I am not saying you don't, by the way, your chams sound like its doing fine. I think that your cham is probably doing well under your care in spite of the reptaid.

Like I said before, I think that there are many more important factors in getting wild caught animals to succeed.

The reptaid website is pretty fond of bashing "traditional" drugs. But the fact is that modern anti-parasitic drugs are very safe and very effective against a wide range of bugs.

Lastly I will quote their website

"*These statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. This product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease."

Sorry for the thread hijack...

Thread hijacks are good, they lead to interesting discussions
Reptaid is not just a magical mix of drugs that we know nothing about, it is utilizing Chinese Eastern medicine that has been in use for thousands of years. Synthetic GSE is no different than actual GSE, it is a citricidal ingredient that has been used through time as a form of medicine, as an anti-microbial. I actually don't use just Reptaid, I have a mix of other "medications" and herbal ingredients (I just don't want to get into my medical protocol for legal reasons) that I use along with it and have been using ingredients similar to Reptaid for years, long before it came out... its not just the brand, if you study the herbs and what they do and have been used for in Eastern medicine, they work wonders, and have not yet proven to be harmful to reptiles, though the main difference in reptiles vs mammals is the three chambered heart and renal-portal system vs our hepatic-portal system, the difference in using these ingredients in mammals and reptiles remains to be seen, but since these herbal remedies that have been used by the Chinese for thousands of years have proven successful for mammals, then what is the harm? The only thing that would concern me would be lack of efficacy and just wasting my time by administering, but I feel I have proven them to be successful. Though I mainly take in critical animals, and I have found that without my "herbal medical intervention", they have a significant chance of survival than if I don't... and I have tested that, and in my eyes, it has been "proven", and with WC imports, my medical protocol proves successful every time unless necropsy shows a major illness. They tend to recover more quickly and thrive. Now this could start a whole new debate about whether homeopathy and holistic medicine is a joke or not and is actually a good substitute for Western medicine, but I don't think it is, I think both should be utilized. Much of our "Western" medications are derived from these herbs and herbal extracts that the Ancient Chinese have been so kind to discover for us , though some of our modern drugs (dewormers) are nothing but a toxin (though necessary at times) that can cause significant damage to the host. For example, antiparasitics that are paralytics for the parasite would cause the same damage to the host if the dose is off. (I actually had a vet kill a uromastyx of mine by miscalculating the dose many years ago, it was very sad). I wouldn't worry too much about the small amount of alcohol that is in there as well, the miniscule amount that is in there to preserve the vitality of the combo and help with internal absorption is not going to harm or dehydrate the animal, and the reptile is not going to get affected from it. Now maybe more studies will come out giving the cons of this herbal drug, but Pau D' Arco, one of the ingredients, has already been known to cause miscarriages, so for these herbs that have been discovered and utilized by the Ancient Chinese for thousands of years have proven so successful that they have been adopted and synthesized by Western medicine, and given all the positives that I have read, studied, and experienced first-hand about using this combination of extracts as well as my own, I know for a fact these "drugs" have saved the lives of animals in my care and I will continue to use them, then again, maybe I just have a healing hand .

 

[zwhitman]

I am not trying to discredit eastern medicine, or herbal remedies, or the practice of homeopathy. I personally think that some of it is incredibly useful and some of it is complete snake oil. But that is just my .02 and there is no point in arguing that here.

What I will argue is that just because these chemicals and extracts are known to be at the very least safe safe for humans (if not beneficial), that does not mean that they are safe for other species. Reptiles and mammals are worlds apart in nearly every way. A renal portal system and a three chambered heart are just the tip of the ice burg.

Generally when you are talking about drug doses and safety, the big concern is the specific types of enzymes, transporters, receptors, etc. that that particular species uses to metabolize foreign substances. These are usually concentrated in the liver and kidneys but important ones are found in many other tissues. The differences in a species ability to metabolize drugs can be dramatically different even between closely related species. Just look at cats and dogs. There are a wide variety of veterinary drugs that are used with dogs every day, but will very quickly kill a cat. Simple ibuprofen, one of the most benign drugs around for a human, can kill a cat or a dog. Change the structure just the tiniest bit and you get carprofen, an NSAID that is safe for dogs. Cows and horses are another great example where drug dosages differ wildly between seemingly very similar species.

OK, so now compare a chameleon, who we really know effectively zero about its specific metabolic capabilities. Even most of the drugs veterinarians use on herps are used off label, because how they work and their level of safety has never been scientifically proven in reptiles. You are giving them a whole slew of compounds that they may or may not be able to handle the way the ancient Chinese intended them to.

One thing that particularly concerns me is that grapefruit seed extract has been known to effect the rate at which some other drugs are absorbed or excreted. A significant number of human drugs warn consumers not to eat any grapefruit products because it will overdose the drug. You say you have your own medical cocktail, so this is something to think about.

"Traditional" drugs are not completely benign and safe either, which is the entire purpose behind medical school and the Rx system. And it is not perfect, I am not arguing at all that it is. Or even that it is better than eastern remedies. I am skeptical about all of it when it comes to a species we know as little about as reptiles.

Obviously some of my points are moot, because people give their reptiles reptaid and they don't fall over dead. But it advertises that it is safe for all reptiles. Any time I see that, I think... Really? Have they tested it on all 11,000 species? I can think of dozens of examples where a drug is safe for all mammals (or reptiles)...except one.

Just for one last example that particularly traumatized me last year... I have used proventamite on literally thousands of reptiles (I used to be the manager of a reptile specialty pet shop, by the way, this is where I ran into so many wild caught chams). Never had a problem with proventamite and I recommended it to everyone. But I found out last year that juveniles of a specific species of python (anthills) are particularly sensitive to it. I treated one quarantine cage with the stuff (across the room from where I keep my baby pythons) and overnight I killed $10,000 worth of baby pythons

Interesting topics for sure. Sorry the narratives just keep getting longer.

I think at this point, this thread needs a cute picture.

 

[FFSTRescue]

Everything in reptile medicine, as well as exotic animal medicine in general, is anecdotal, there will always be exceptions such as with Panacur killing Hyacinth macaws. Even some chameleons vary according to their liver enzymes and metabolism... look at Deremensis for example.
I do not use GSE in conjunction with other herbal remedies, I don't just throw a "medical cocktail" at animals, I am educated in medicine and I give different things for different ailments, I don't make a magical stew and throw it at every reptile . That is why I would never tell people what I use because a little bit of knowledge is a bad thing for some people and a bad combo can be detrimental.
The thing is, I have used herbal remedies (as well as Western medicine when needed, no hesitation) to treat WC chams and have then kept them in my care, and they lived many years in captivity. I have also not used herbal remedies on WC reptiles and they didn't live as long as those treated, on average, for the great majority. My statistics have shown me that I have been successful, and until science has proven otherwise, I will continue to acclimate the way that I do. I know you said you have acclimated thousands of WC chameleons without medical/herbal intervention, but you worked at a pet shop, so those pets were sold I'm assuming, were you ever able to follow up on their longevity for most of them?
I think even debating it is a moot point because it is opinion vs. opinion with both sides being correct in certain aspects, but only time will tell and be able to give us accurate dosing based on empirical evidence. This is a great and very educational debate for those reading

ADORABLE pic by the way!!!

 

[zwhitman]

Actually yes. I would say that the majority of our clientele that purchased reptiles from us also purchased feeders regularly too. We got to know most of our clients pets pretty well. Granted this was a pet store, and plenty went out the door and were never heard from again. We tried to be responsible, but there is only so much you can do in that situation. Also, when you sold someone an animal and something did go wrong, they tend to come back around to show you the problem. Especially in the days before they could go run to an internet forum for help. The reptile shop was the place to try before the vet. (ill advised, by the way)

We would keep chams for several weeks during which time they needed to go from fresh import, to robust, healthy, and confident enough for them to go to a new home. We put them in cages that were above head height and out of the way. We gave them plenty of cover and privacy, a heavy misting schedule, great lighting, and a really varied diet (perk of being in a pet store is you have tons of resources to really do things the right way at an incredibly low cost). We did use some supplements but not much. I think it was just repcal with D3 for most. Only every few feedings.

We had huge success rates with our chameleons. We sold tons of both captive bred and wild caught. Some of the nicest panthers and veilds in the north east in the 90's came though us. We also worked with chameleon canopies, and we made custom ones for people which were a big hit. I still love these...

Aside from the fact that I no longer support the wild caught market at all for most species, there are only two things I would really change about how we actually handled the chams back then. We were too cheap to pay for fecals. Big mistake. Fecals pay for themselves. And I wish we had never sold a senegal chameleon ever. Those things would come in looking great, do OK for us in the store for a little while, and then they would go to a home and crash and burn.

Herbs and drugs aside. What else do you do with fresh imports?

 

[zwhitman]

Thinking about that just reminded me of a story I haven't thought about in a long time. We used to sell male veilds or panthers, off of a similar canopy to the one in the picture above. It was the centerpiece of the store right in front of the register. You would think that it would have been too stressful for them, but we would just feed them by hand all day and let the customers do it to. Within a few days of being on the canopy, they would become the tamest chameleons you've ever seen, and they would literally beg for food from nearly every passerby.

Well that went on for several years. We were always afraid that someone might walk out the door with the loose chameleon (Hence being right next to the register). But this one day a huge biker was in the store buying rats for his boas. While he was at the register, a particularly bold male veiled took the opportunity to make his great escape, by climbing onto the back of the guys leather jacket without anyone noticing! That guy had the surprise of his life about 2 blocks away on his chopper, when he realized he had company sitting on his shoulder!

 

[FFSTRescue]

Aside from the fact that I no longer support the wild caught market at all for most species, there are only two things I would really change about how we actually handled the chams back then. We were too cheap to pay for fecals. Big mistake. Fecals pay for themselves. And I wish we had never sold a senegal chameleon ever. Those things would come in looking great, do OK for us in the store for a little while, and then they would go to a home and crash and burn.

Herbs and drugs aside. What else do you do with fresh imports?

First I have to warn you, I am so exhausted from such a long day and no sleep that I might not make sense, I hope you can make sense of my words .
Senegals are mainly what I deal with, and when I talk about treating and acclimating fresh imports, I mainly am talking about Gracefuls, Senegals, Flapnecks, etc, the common ones that are put through horrendous situations to get here and hence look rough, and, like you said, crash and burn so quickly once they are sold. These guys are mainly what I was talking about when I say they do better and live longer when treated with Reptaid, and other such meds, than not. I would be a little hesitant to give something such as GSE without having fecals done to a healthy-looking WC Panther, because for one, they don't go through the atrocious conditions usually that the common ones do during exportation/importation, which puts immense stress on their systems. If, however, I receive a WC deremensis, I don't give them anything other than extra hydration and have several fecal checks done and only treat if necessary.
I think, due to the amount of chameleons that are imported now compared to 20 years ago, the conditions in which they are now held at those holding facilities and during transport, since there are so many more now than then, really contribute to their early demise. I'm sure you have noticed a decline in the health of WC chams overall since the early 90's. So sad, I wish there was something that could be done.
I am trying to captive breed these guys because very few people do since they are so cheap, and I think it is disgusting how they become pet store fodder , so hopefully I can do my part to help increase the amount of CB with these species to lessen such drastic importation. That is a whole new issue that could start a debate that I am not interested in participating for some of those reading who oppose that theory. I am also trying to figure out why the Senegal hatchling mortality rate is so high... hopefully I will have a successful clutch one of these days... sigh. I also give healthy pairs to people who want to and will breed Senegals. It gets quite expensive, but is so worth it .

So I love the idea of that canopy, but I have a Fischers that jumps like a frog and would make it to the floor and walk away. I love the idea of it being open-air like that, and someone sells something similar on ebay, but I have so many jumpers that would clear the bottom. I though about putting a childrens small swimming pool as the bottom, but it just takes up so much space. I love how the Pothos winds through the set-up. I am going to figure out building something similar, but my jumpers will have to stay in cages. I think my Fischers can clear about 3 feet!

That is an adorable story by the way, that was the funnest day of that chams life, he went for a ride!

 

[zwhitman]

Yeah those guys are tough. They seem like they do fine if they have excellent conditions but the slightest mistake and they just can't handle it. I have never found any product or technique that will change that! Never tried breeding these and I dont think I have ever seen a captive bred one for sale either. Good luck with that. Have you ever gotten live babies?

As far as I am concerned these things should be discouraged by the industry. The mainstream herp media did such a great job discouraging everyone from buying iguanas, and I have always felt that these should go the same way. They end up in the wrong hands simply because of the price. There are some animals that just don't belong in a cage.