How does stress kill?

[bluesox68]

The reason for my question is I know i'm putting an incredible amount of stress on the rescue I have. We wrap him in a towel and syringe feed him Grub pie and administer hydrogen peroxide twice a day. I know nutrients are going into his malnourished body so I'd hope that makes him feel stronger and I imagine the peroxide stings but could he just pass because of the stress from all this? I lot of mouth rot scab got pulled out so he does have fresh sores I just want him to get better.

 

[Remkon]

Stress doesn't directly kill but it lowers resistance and makes then more susceptible to disease.

 

[jpowell86]

The reason for my question is I know i'm putting an incredible amount of stress on the rescue I have. We wrap him in a towel and syringe feed him Grub pie and administer hydrogen peroxide twice a day. I know nutrients are going into his malnourished body so I'd hope that makes him feel stronger and I imagine the peroxide stings but could he just pass because of the stress from all this? I lot of mouth rot scab got pulled out so he does have fresh sores I just want him to get better.

@Remkon is correct. That is the issue with learning the balance of what and what not to do when treating a chameleon in regards to rehabilitation. Usually stress kills fresh imports because the immune system is subdued and this allows parasites and other issues to ramp up and get out of control.

May I ask what you are using Hydrogen Peroxide on? Application? Also, to make the feeding less stressful on the chameleon, I always use crop needles that way I don't have to hold them for prolonged periods of time.

But, stress as a whole is a real killer of chameleons. It's not just a quick death response either. Stress can be a slow killer as the body eventually gives up. One thing I have always been curious about is as to whether chameleons suffer from capture myopathy. I have always felt this could be a real problem with some specimens. @jajeanpierre and I have talked about this in fair length. We think it is possible. May not be to the extent of birds since that is one of the only animals tests have been done on. But it isn't a highly studied condition as it is.

 

[WAMBO]

I don't think it's just the immune system, all though it's probably the major killer. stress causes a release a of lots of hormones, adding to detrimental physiologic changes.

 

[jpowell86]

Just explaining what @WAMBO is meaning above, the adrenal gland releases stress hormones(Adrenalin and Corticosterone). Corticosterone has a direct effect on growth and the immune system. I've read before that once these stressors cause this release, it can take 5-7 days before levels are returned to normal.

So, that should give a pretty nice indication of how stress can compound and ultimately kill a chameleon.

 

[Action Jackson]

I'm curious about the use of hydrogen peroxide. Are you using it in his mouth?

 

[bluesox68]

First off, thanks everyone for the great responses! I am using the peroxide to clean the wound. Application is with a q tip to avoid any going in to his stomach. More infore on the rescue and whats wrong can be found here https://www.chameleonforums.com/threads/i-took-on-a-rescue-advice-appreciated.156274/ . I really do love the wisdom shared.

 

[jpowell86]

First off, thanks everyone for the great responses! I am using the peroxide to clean the wound. Application is with a q tip to avoid any going in to his stomach. More infore on the rescue and whats wrong can be found here https://www.chameleonforums.com/threads/i-took-on-a-rescue-advice-appreciated.156274/ . I really do love the wisdom shared.

After seeing what you are dealing with, I would strongly advise you get some crop needles to feed with. You don't want bits and pieces of insect sitting around in the inflamed and infected areas of his mouth. The crop needle will allow you to get all the food past the windpipe and directly into the stomach. Much easier IMO.

The idea of using Hydrogen Peroxide is a bit scary. Was this the recommendation of a vet?

I see in the other thread that people are pointing out it is MBD related. I don't think that is what we are looking at. It looks like mouth rot that is fairly advanced. This is going to have to be treated with antibiotics. There is no way around it. Infection in this area is hard to get in front of.

 

[Andee]

Yes it was decided that his MBD if he had any at all was fine. But he had pretty severe mouth rot once he was looked at by a vet once again. If you look at certain pictures in the older thread when @bluesox68 first got this guy you can see how advanced it was before it was cleaned well just by looking at the peek the separation his lips gave. I was so glad you took him in hun. It really was more advanced than I realized at the time, and means that he hadn't been correctly treated at the time he was supposedly treated.

I am not surprised the mouth rot did as severe damage as it did with his jaws etc, @jpowell86, I totally agree with you it is a really bad case. I think the peroxide is being used to make sure the area is clean... but I am not sure if he is being or has been treated with antibiotics? What is a crop needle? Is it the flexible tipped syringes? I have never fed baby birds with anything other than really tiny syringes... not even cc syringes, I have also used flexible tipped syringes, even when I worked at the wild song bird rescue and we had the new born nestlings sometimes in the incubators. I usually use just 1 cc syringes on chameleons, but I have chameleons who usually work with me a bit better, and I don't take them out most of the time to feed/medicate them. Though I have never dealt with mouth rot this severe. I imagine anything touching his mouth hurts poor guy.

Hoping your guy turns around well @bluesox68. I do know peroxide can be damaging to tissue for healthy tissue to grow, but it does well for infectedd tissue. So I would be interested to know what you would think is best for this @jpowell86 since the vet told him to do peroxide I think?

 

[jpowell86]

That explains a lot....thanks @Andee

Here is the deal @bluesox68, you cleaning it everyday is wonderful, but it's not going to solve your problem. The infection is already there. I am leery of using Hydrogen Peroxide because I feel it is too irritating to the tissue, especially the tissue around the mouth. He most certainly needs to be on a broad spectrum antibiotic to say the least. The sooner the better. I think if you could feed with crop needles and flush the area with a saline solution a couple of times a day, this coupled with antibiotic treatment...you will start to see better results.

I am glad you are working with him and trying to turn him around. This is what I do actually. It's why I work almost exclusively with imports. It is a passion of mine to acclimate and turn them around. So I have seen my fair share of infections. There are some areas above his lip around the rostral process that may need to be drained and debrided as well. Sometimes when infection walls off in that area, it can be difficult to treat with antibiotics since the puss is so thick.

 

[jpowell86]

@Andee - Crop needles. Love them.

 

[Andee]

Ohhhh o.o those are awesome. I might have to get some for my more critical rescues when I get them. Are they something that can be used multiple times if cleaned well? Cause I often get different reptiles other than chameleons with smaller mouths than even jacksons etc, so having those type of "needles" to use would be great <3

(Edit: for confusing wording I didn't realize was there, gotta love when I don't reread and then when I come back and do it makes no sense XD)

 

[jpowell86]

Ohhhh o.o those are awesome. I might have to get some for my more critical rescues when I get them. Are they something that can be used multiple times if cleaned well? Cause I often get different reptiles other than reptiles with smaller mouths than even jacksons etc, so having those type of "needles" to use would be great <3

Oh yeah, they are stainless steel. I have had one set for over 10 years.

 

[Andee]

This is a must have for my next order.

 

[jpowell86]

This is a must have for my next order.

Just thought I would add this link for anyone that might want some of these. This particular set is very nice and does the job well.

http://www.reptilebasics.com/feeding/dosing-needles/deluxe-dosing-needle-set/

 

[bluesox68]

This is what I riged up to avoid debris in his mouth. I will look into getting saline as well. I am caefull with the paroxide and qtip too. I really just want him to have the health and strength to feed on his own and even if it's for a shortened time, have a life with comfort. @Andee I appreciate all the advice and help you've provided so far! And @jpowell86 thanks I really am trying my best.