How much Bug Juice for Sick Cham?

M

MadameTerrapene

Member
Hello all,

Forum lurker here. I'm wondering if anyone knows a good volume for syringe feeding with bug juice. I'm looking for a daily (24 hour) feeding volume.

In case you're looking for more info, I have a male 1-2 yo Jackson's Chameleon who has been off feed for 3 weeks. Chameleon weighs 50 grams now. He was 57 g before off feed. I'm a reptile rehabilitator and he came to me as a rescue with pedal abcesses. He's been to to Dr. Larry White in Houston, TX for abcess treatment. He began going off-feed after his amikacin treatments ended.

He tolerated .3mL of mealworm bug juice yesterday. Bug juice is composed of 3 parts water, 2 parts egg yolk, 1 part pure insect juice (either mealworm or waxworm). I dissolved (as best as possible) 10mg of calcium citrate and 5mg of Repashey's superload into 15mL of water and this is the water that I am using to make the Bug Juice.

Thanks in advance for your advice and input.
 
Hello,

I see you havent received any replies. When I was syringe feeding my panther the vet instructed 2-3ml. I give my bearded dragon usually 3-5mL of bug juice. For a jackson I would say around 2mL.
 
sandrachameleon said:
I've never had to bug juice feed for very long, so I've always just guesstimated.

you may however find this link useful:
https://www.chameleonforums.com/blo...s-day-required-maintain-chameleon-weight.html

hope it works out for you and the jack.

people who take in sick/injured animals and do their best for them are to be commended. I commend you.
Click to expand...

Thank you for the link and your kind words. Some days I look at him and think that he'll be OK, while others I'm certain that he's taking a turn for the worse. This week he's had more good days than bad, though, so I think that the bug juice is going to be the key to his recovery. It's been a long time since I've had an animal that requires this much time and effort, but I'm a firm believer in the old motto "if you save a life, you are then responsible for it".

Thank you for your advice and support, I'll post with updates on his progress.
 
The little guy is doing alright. Pedal abscesses are persistently healing and recurring. I hate reptile abcesses, they're so stubborn, but his seem particularly so.

On feeding. It's hard to get more than .75mL of my bug juice into him in one day (.75mL is divided into 2 or 3 feedings), but his weight is slowly creeping up so .75mL must be enough for him and his slow metabolism. I've been feeding him drop-by-patient-drop while he's displaying a drinking response. I am avoiding force-feeding or gastric tube feeding because I'm trying my best to keep his stress levels as low as possible. I've read that chameleons tolerate stress very poorly and he already receives a lot of handling with his abscess care. He always has a bubbler water source (which I've seen him drink out of) but also gets twice daily showers with room temp to warm water. He's not defecating very often but his stools look normal and firm when he does go. Still no interest in feeding for himself, either. I've tried hornworms, waxworms, crickets, mealworm beetles, roaches, superworms, mealworms, reptiworms, butterworms...and I think that's it lol I'm thinking about buying some blue bottle fly larvae because the soldier fly larvae aren't pupating. Maybe he needs something flying around his cage to stimulate his appetite.

For those reading this thread because you're interested in syringe feeding your reptile, I should mention that I purchased a small bag of Oxbow's Carnivore Care powdered food substitute and have been using it to sometimes replace bug juice. The Carnivore Care can be purchased easily on Amazon.com. I would recommend it for those who need to syringe feed a reptile and do not have the time to measure, prep and mix a liquid diet (also the calcium and phosphorous is close to what a reptile needs-so little worry about that).

Pro to Carnivore Care:
-big time saver in prepping
-very conveniently stored in the freezer as a powder (I divided my bag into little 1 oz plastic cups)
-very fine powder is easily mixed in room temp water
-good nutrient balance so you don't have to worry about mixing supplements properly


Con:
-clumps in small tipped syringes, even when mixed well
-smells bad and my cham does not accept as much
-expensive

Sid (oops, I named him, guess that means I have to keep him :p ) will usually only take about .5mL of this stuff a day so most mornings- about 4 out of 5- I wake up early to prep a day's worth of bug juice instead.

Well, that's all for now. Back later with more updates.
 
sandrachameleon said:
I've heard that there is too much protein and vitamin A in carnivore care for long-term use? Is there a version for insect eating creatures?

another link you may find useful:
https://www.chameleonforums.com/blogs/ataraxia/454-dehydration-solutions-force-fluid-tips.html

I am curious to see photos of the abscesses
Click to expand...

Thanks for the link!

Your source is probably right. I'm no expert on animal nutrition, but I wouldn't doubt that there is too much protein and vit A in there for long term use in chams. I've been worried about the protein in particular because, despite my best efforts to keep him hydrated during antibiotic treatment, I think that the Amikacin might have damaged his kidneys a little. I don't know if there is a powdered critical care diet for insectivores, but if I find one somewhere I will definitely post about it here.

I don't have any current pics of his abscesses, but I'll try to remember to snap some tomorrow while I'm cleaning his areas. He has one foot in particular that is really bad and is persistently in a cycle of healing, swelling, scabbing, debriding/de-pussing, then healing again.

Update: Sid is still getting bug juice daily. Still under 1mL daily. He's also been stomaching cut-in-half medium mealworms this week. He only gets a few at a time, but he's chewing them and keeping them down so that's good enough for now :) Previously, he vomited up the whole feeders that I placed partially in his mouth while he was drinking and that is why I began using bug juice when he went off-feed. I purchased bottle fly pupae from mantisplace.com and they're on their way. Hopefully he likes these enough and feels well enough to shoot at them and begin eating on his own again.
 
Bush baby said:
How are you getting the chams mouth to open? Veiled's gape but Jackson's don't….
Click to expand...

I didn't know that this group of chams didn't gape. He's very calm and gentle. I don't know if that's a typical jacksonii disposition or if he's just a chill lizard. He "gapes" sometimes, but it doesn't look like a threat display...more like he's taking a big breath after not breathing for a minute or so.

I get him to open his mouth by putting him in the shower, letting the mist from the shower spray and a gentle intermittent, overhead mist from my mister bottle stimulate him to drink, he (eyes closed) opens his mouth to drink the drops on his lips. Then as he opens and closes his mouth to drink the mist, I gently, drop-by-drop, give him a drink of water followed by a drop-by-drop liquid feeding. I try to place the drops on his tongue but he doesn't always stick it out far enough, so many times the drop goes on the inside of his lower jaw. I try not to touch his teeth or his skin with the syringe so that he is not disturbed. I give him one drop of liquid per mouth opening/closing, which is very tedious but I don't want him to aspirate anything and add to his list of health problems with a RI.

I use small and point-tipped (similar to dental syringes) 1.5cc syringes to administer water and liquid diet. The pointed tip is much easier to use than the normal-tipped syringes. Sometimes the whole process can take 30 minutes or more because he'll stop drinking, wait, and then start again 5 or 10 minutes later.

I'm going to be VERY happy when he begins feeding on his own again because my daily schedule is practically shaped around his waterings/feedings/abscess cleanings. Because I've been having to care for him so many hours/day for so long (since Feb.), he gets the most needy rescue animal award for sure. All of the hard works looks to be paying off, though. His abscesses have slowed down in their development (only 2 new ones since he came into my care) and the two that he's currently recovering from are in the debriding process with no signs of new pus. I think that he's going to be Ok. It's always nice when that happens :)
 
Thanks.

I'm syringe feeding mine now and have a hell of a time opening his mouth.

Mine seems to have an issue with his tongue. He's interested in food but seems to not want to shoot it out. It looks as though he's licking the prey. Anyhow, i've been giving him a mixture of calcium/multi-vitamins/and crushed butter and horn worms every other day plus a lot of natural sunlight to see if it resolves the issue...
 
Bush baby said:
Thanks.

I'm syringe feeding mine now and have a hell of a time opening his mouth.

Mine seems to have an issue with his tongue. He's interested in food but seems to not want to shoot it out. It looks as though he's licking the prey. Anyhow, i've been giving him a mixture of calcium/multi-vitamins/and crushed butter and horn worms every other day plus a lot of natural sunlight to see if it resolves the issue...
Click to expand...

Does it seem like he's trying to scoop the prey up in his mouth?

PMed
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

baldarthecham
New chameleon owner I rescued him in bad shape HELP ME!
5 6 7
Replies
137
Views
4K
baldarthecham
baldarthecham
skywes13
Vet or No Vet?
Replies
9
Views
1K
Lindasjackson
L
K
Nosey Be rescue turn for the worse... please help!
Replies
11
Views
2K
Pluto_the_Panther
Pluto_the_Panther
C
Updated care!!
Replies
17
Views
2K
Beman
Beman
T
Sick Cham, New Owner, No Vet Help forth coming
Replies
14
Views
952
kinyonga
K
Back
Top Bottom