jpowell86
Chameleon Enthusiast
So there are good points made in this thread, but I think that there are aspects that aren't discussed and here is my opinion on it.
Do I believe that a chameleon can handle being handled on a daily basis?? Define "handle" would be my reply to that.
I think when we get in these debates here on the forums, we generalize the term handle too much. We also forget that "chameleon" encompasses many species that are all different in their own ways.
Do I handle my chameleons...yes. I think it is very important to get your chameleon used to the idea of being on your hand because there are going to be situations where you need to pull them for occasions like free range time, vets, etc. I have my own method of achieving this.
That segues me into this point. Many people who say they "handle" their chameleon on a daily basis are simply taking their chameleon from an enclosure to a free range situation. I don't consider this excessive handling. I think this is when people get confused. @jajeanpierre takes her chameleons outside too and they go in/on her hands. That is not the argument. If it were, there would be a ton of hypocrisy going on here. What she is considering "excessive handling" is taking the chameleon into situations where chameleons don't belong or putting them through unnecessary stress.
Here is the issue. Stress doesn't give us automatic feedback as to health related issues in chameleons. That is a simple statement and let's not even acknowledge that statement in regards to handling. It doesn't matter what the stressor is.....it's a stressor. Stress takes a toll on living things. That is a fact.
Now, we are not talking about primates, parrots, or any other animal. Let's not do the comparison game. We are talking about chameleons, an animal that has used it's evolutionary time to gain beneficial camouflage, display mimicry and live solitary lives arboreally(most species). So, just in thinking about the very nature of the animal, one would not conclude that it desires a place among the family or wants to trust you.
Now, for a even bigger point. Both @jannb and @JaxyGirl are on one side of the argument saying that their chameleons are entirely more social and trusting of them. One thing that is a commonality among these two keepers is that both state that their animals are free ranged....not caged. This plays an integral part in their argument and this is what the novice keeper needs to understand. I HATE the so called "standard" for chameleon husbandry. We say a 24x24x48 is perfect for a male veiled. Bull!! That is a standard cage size used by the masses....period. I have probably ten to twenty times more chameleons than most keepers. All of my chameleons get larger enclosures than most, a greenhouse or are free ranged. When you take the perimeter down, the level of stress drops too(IMO). So, when I approach my animals, I don't get the hissing, puffing up displays like most people get. This is because I am not cornering an animal inside of a confined space. To me that is common sense. All of my chameleons, except a few, are WC. There is not one chameleon I own that doesn't hand feed. This is in no way a slight against Jann or any of the other keepers here on that side of the argument. I personally don't see this as being social behavior. I find it to be a food driven response. When I walk into my greenhouse, my melleri storm down the branches to me. People who come see my chameleons always say..."man, they love you so much." IMO...no they don't. I am the bringer of food. My hand delivers them to awesome perches outside. When I present my hand, they get on it. I don't have to physically pick them up. Would the majority of the general public see this as a "tame" animal....yes. But I don't. I see it as a repetitive response to food and an overall acceptance of my presence because 9/10, my presence is advantageous to them.
So, I think you will see totally different response from an animal that is caged v one that is free ranging or has an environment large enough.
I will agree with @JaxyGirl on the fact that I too find some chameleons to be incredibly intelligent. I think my melleri really work things out in their heads all the time. Especially when I watch them via camera and get to see their true nature without me standing there in the physical. It is amazing to watch them interact. But, that is not a characteristic that I have ever seen in any of my other species. Not saying that there aren't some out there that don't, but I am stating what I have seen and learned during the 17 years I have kept chameleons.
People will always see animals differently. I learned that a long time ago....which is why I rarely engage in these debates. Many people get upset and we lose our ability to share information with each other as keepers because of the underlying attitudes and tones that are associated with human debates. To me, that is the dangerous part when being on a forum like this. Opinions get pushed on to the novice that makes up the majority of this forum. I have seen all the more experienced keepers on here state that "chameleons are all individuals", yet we give these standard across the board answers. There are so many ways that people here keep their animals. I don't agree with 99% of it. Conversely, those keepers might not see it my way. That is NORMAL. That is why a forum like this is so important. It is a place where we can engage in conversation and compare notes. Lately I have seen so many ugly responses and name calling. It made me back away from the forums because who has time for that shit? We are all passionate about chameleons and that should be enough of a commonality to at least respect where the other person is coming from...even if you don't agree.
This is to the Novice - Bottom line, to me, the only way to judge how your are keeping your animals is by their health. If you are constantly having animals die young (which we see far too often here) or your animals are constantly sick and battling health issues, then as a responsible keeper, you have to conclude that something is off. The difference in how I keep my chameleons today v how I kept them when I initially got in the hobby is night and day. When I had animals die, I didn't brush myself off and say I did all I could. I admitted to myself that I did that animal a disservice and didn't repeat my mistakes. The hell of it is, when you initially get into it, you don't know what those mistakes are. You setup the enclosure just like you were told, you fed them the right things, why did it die?? There are so many variables that are involved in proper care. That is why you rely on people that have dealt with those issues before and seek their advice. Which is why this place needs to get it together.
Do I believe that a chameleon can handle being handled on a daily basis?? Define "handle" would be my reply to that.
I think when we get in these debates here on the forums, we generalize the term handle too much. We also forget that "chameleon" encompasses many species that are all different in their own ways.
Do I handle my chameleons...yes. I think it is very important to get your chameleon used to the idea of being on your hand because there are going to be situations where you need to pull them for occasions like free range time, vets, etc. I have my own method of achieving this.
That segues me into this point. Many people who say they "handle" their chameleon on a daily basis are simply taking their chameleon from an enclosure to a free range situation. I don't consider this excessive handling. I think this is when people get confused. @jajeanpierre takes her chameleons outside too and they go in/on her hands. That is not the argument. If it were, there would be a ton of hypocrisy going on here. What she is considering "excessive handling" is taking the chameleon into situations where chameleons don't belong or putting them through unnecessary stress.
Here is the issue. Stress doesn't give us automatic feedback as to health related issues in chameleons. That is a simple statement and let's not even acknowledge that statement in regards to handling. It doesn't matter what the stressor is.....it's a stressor. Stress takes a toll on living things. That is a fact.
Now, we are not talking about primates, parrots, or any other animal. Let's not do the comparison game. We are talking about chameleons, an animal that has used it's evolutionary time to gain beneficial camouflage, display mimicry and live solitary lives arboreally(most species). So, just in thinking about the very nature of the animal, one would not conclude that it desires a place among the family or wants to trust you.
Now, for a even bigger point. Both @jannb and @JaxyGirl are on one side of the argument saying that their chameleons are entirely more social and trusting of them. One thing that is a commonality among these two keepers is that both state that their animals are free ranged....not caged. This plays an integral part in their argument and this is what the novice keeper needs to understand. I HATE the so called "standard" for chameleon husbandry. We say a 24x24x48 is perfect for a male veiled. Bull!! That is a standard cage size used by the masses....period. I have probably ten to twenty times more chameleons than most keepers. All of my chameleons get larger enclosures than most, a greenhouse or are free ranged. When you take the perimeter down, the level of stress drops too(IMO). So, when I approach my animals, I don't get the hissing, puffing up displays like most people get. This is because I am not cornering an animal inside of a confined space. To me that is common sense. All of my chameleons, except a few, are WC. There is not one chameleon I own that doesn't hand feed. This is in no way a slight against Jann or any of the other keepers here on that side of the argument. I personally don't see this as being social behavior. I find it to be a food driven response. When I walk into my greenhouse, my melleri storm down the branches to me. People who come see my chameleons always say..."man, they love you so much." IMO...no they don't. I am the bringer of food. My hand delivers them to awesome perches outside. When I present my hand, they get on it. I don't have to physically pick them up. Would the majority of the general public see this as a "tame" animal....yes. But I don't. I see it as a repetitive response to food and an overall acceptance of my presence because 9/10, my presence is advantageous to them.
So, I think you will see totally different response from an animal that is caged v one that is free ranging or has an environment large enough.
I will agree with @JaxyGirl on the fact that I too find some chameleons to be incredibly intelligent. I think my melleri really work things out in their heads all the time. Especially when I watch them via camera and get to see their true nature without me standing there in the physical. It is amazing to watch them interact. But, that is not a characteristic that I have ever seen in any of my other species. Not saying that there aren't some out there that don't, but I am stating what I have seen and learned during the 17 years I have kept chameleons.
People will always see animals differently. I learned that a long time ago....which is why I rarely engage in these debates. Many people get upset and we lose our ability to share information with each other as keepers because of the underlying attitudes and tones that are associated with human debates. To me, that is the dangerous part when being on a forum like this. Opinions get pushed on to the novice that makes up the majority of this forum. I have seen all the more experienced keepers on here state that "chameleons are all individuals", yet we give these standard across the board answers. There are so many ways that people here keep their animals. I don't agree with 99% of it. Conversely, those keepers might not see it my way. That is NORMAL. That is why a forum like this is so important. It is a place where we can engage in conversation and compare notes. Lately I have seen so many ugly responses and name calling. It made me back away from the forums because who has time for that shit? We are all passionate about chameleons and that should be enough of a commonality to at least respect where the other person is coming from...even if you don't agree.
This is to the Novice - Bottom line, to me, the only way to judge how your are keeping your animals is by their health. If you are constantly having animals die young (which we see far too often here) or your animals are constantly sick and battling health issues, then as a responsible keeper, you have to conclude that something is off. The difference in how I keep my chameleons today v how I kept them when I initially got in the hobby is night and day. When I had animals die, I didn't brush myself off and say I did all I could. I admitted to myself that I did that animal a disservice and didn't repeat my mistakes. The hell of it is, when you initially get into it, you don't know what those mistakes are. You setup the enclosure just like you were told, you fed them the right things, why did it die?? There are so many variables that are involved in proper care. That is why you rely on people that have dealt with those issues before and seek their advice. Which is why this place needs to get it together.
