humidity/temperature/containment problems

[Kevin1192]

Hey guys and girls.

First off, yes I've done tons of research and have almost worn out the "search button" .... just to start things off right

SO heres my problems:

I just got my first Veiled chameleon, (male, approx. 3 months old) and I'm having a horrible time getting his enclosure to where it should be in this Canadian climate.

The humidity (one hygrometer on floor one up in tree) is averaging around 30-40% throughout the day, after multiple hot mistings. All but one plant is real, and the floor has 2" of topsoil, then 2" of plantation soil, and finally a nice layer of moss on top of that. There is also a waterfall (cleaned thoroughly and regularily) and a driller that I just rigged up.

The enclosure is fully screened, approximately (LxWxH) 30x16x36" with two 13w 5.0 UVB bulbs and a 13w daylight bulb.

I currently do not have a humidifier, though I will be getting one tomorrow.

Now, i covered the back and one side of the enclosure with a garbage bag to try to retain the humidity and temperature, to no avail. Temperatures are usually mid-high 70's. The room's ambient temperature is approximately 65.

This isn't working. It is horrendously frustrating and making me nervous of his health. (I've had him 3 days)

Now. heres the zinger. I know people frown upon the exo terra glass terrariums... UNLESS you live in Canada (which I've read a few times) but I have come across a good deal that I'm about to pull the trigger on.

SO, would it be ok to use a glass terrarium IF I was to rig up a computer fan (or something similar) to the top of the mesh to force circulation? I just can't seem to get the screened cage where it needs to be.

Also, to resolve the drainage issues, could I not plant grass in the bottom just to take up excess water? Maybe not ideal, but I thought it was a clever idea. currently there is Wandering jew, dracaena, golden pothos and a couple vines growing in there, but I dont want to flood the enclosure.

So, with a semi-legitimate ventilation system, would I be ok to do glass? The house is super dry and its just looking like a disaster to do screen only.

What would you do if you were in my shoes, and WHY?

Thanks for the help, I'm trying to make a utopia for the little fella but its proving to be more difficult than I'd anticipated.

Also, if something/anything looks wrong please let me know. I'm doing my best to make it right but a second opinion is always appreciated.

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[Carlton]

The humidity (one hygrometer on floor one up in tree) is averaging around 30-40% throughout the day, after multiple hot mistings. All but one plant is real, and the floor has 2" of topsoil, then 2" of plantation soil, and finally a nice layer of moss on top of that. There is also a waterfall (cleaned thoroughly and regularily) and a driller that I just rigged up.

The enclosure is fully screened, approximately (LxWxH) 30x16x36" with two 13w 5.0 UVB bulbs and a 13w daylight bulb.

Now, i covered the back and one side of the enclosure with a garbage bag to try to retain the humidity and temperature, to no avail.
Now. heres the zinger. I know people frown upon the exo terra glass terrariums... UNLESS you live in Canada (which I've read a few times) but I have come across a good deal that I'm about to pull the trigger on.

SO, would it be ok to use a glass terrarium IF I was to rig up a computer fan (or something similar) to the top of the mesh to force circulation? I just can't seem to get the screened cage where it needs to be.

Also, to resolve the drainage issues, could I not plant grass in the bottom just to take up excess water?
So, with a semi-legitimate ventilation system, would I be ok to do glass? The house is super dry and its just looking like a disaster to do screen only.

IMHO there's no reason to get a new enclosure...there are a few more things you can do to the screen cage first. Cover more of the cage sides with plastic. I have covered all but small areas of some of my screen cages especially in winter heating season. The room may be drafty which will also speed up the evaporation rate more than you realize. You can remove the plastic in other seasons if conditions permit. This will create something more like the solid sided enclosure you are thinking about. As long as there is air exchange it will work, but as there will be more surface area that holds water and less air flow (exposure to the room's drier air) the evaporation rate will slow down. A humidifier will help stabilize the RH between misting cycles without adding to your cage flooding issue. If the humidifier uses a fan to push fog there's your air exchange built in!

Grass won't necessarily do much more to keep the cage bottom from flooding. In fact, grass prefers faster drying soil and very bright direct light. It probably won't do very well.

 

[Kevin1192]

IMHO there's no reason to get a new enclosure...there are a few more things you can do to the screen cage first. Cover more of the cage sides with plastic. I have covered all but small areas of some of my screen cages especially in winter heating season. The room may be drafty which will also speed up the evaporation rate more than you realize. You can remove the plastic in other seasons if conditions permit. This will create something more like the solid sided enclosure you are thinking about. As long as there is air exchange it will work, but as there will be more surface area that holds water and less air flow (exposure to the room's drier air) the evaporation rate will slow down. A humidifier will help stabilize the RH between misting cycles without adding to your cage flooding issue. If the humidifier uses a fan to push fog there's your air exchange built in!

Grass won't necessarily do much more to keep the cage bottom from flooding. In fact, grass prefers faster drying soil and very bright direct light. It probably won't do very well.

Well, the main push to get a new enclosure is that this one is duct tape patched, and also a huuuge pain to access. It has a zipper that runs all the way around the top, which shakes the terrarium like an earthquake when you try to unzip it. I also had to make a wooden frame to go on top of it so the lights wouldn't be directly on the nylon mesh. trust me, its a huge PITA to get in there to feed him or mist. The crickets are forever finding ways out lol.

Now, I was at PJ's pets and saw a new style of screen terrarium that is made up of full side panels that pop off for easy access. I'd imagine this may be a good idea? http://www.exo-terra.com/en/products/screen_terrarium.php

Would the largest one (24” x 18” x 24”) be big enough? These things seem pretty well built and sturdy, and it's only $65, which is nice.

Good call about the grass. I thought it would thrive in a damp environment. hmm. I'll search around for an alternative.

I know its not the right area but while I'm thinking of these questions, does he look healthy to you? One fella at PJ's said he looks a bit skinny. Based off that, I got some silkworms and butterworms, but naturally he refuses to eat them.

 

[Carlton]

Well, the main push to get a new enclosure is that this one is duct tape patched, and also a huuuge pain to access. It has a zipper that runs all the way around the top, which shakes the terrarium like an earthquake when you try to unzip it. I also had to make a wooden frame to go on top of it so the lights wouldn't be directly on the nylon mesh. trust me, its a huge PITA to get in there to feed him or mist. The crickets are forever finding ways out lol.

Now, I was at PJ's pets and saw a new style of screen terrarium that is made up of full side panels that pop off for easy access. I'd imagine this may be a good idea? http://www.exo-terra.com/en/products/screen_terrarium.php

Would the largest one (24” x 18” x 24”) be big enough? These things seem pretty well built and sturdy, and it's only $65, which is nice.

Good call about the grass. I thought it would thrive in a damp environment. hmm. I'll search around for an alternative.

I know its not the right area but while I'm thinking of these questions, does he look healthy to you? One fella at PJ's said he looks a bit skinny. Based off that, I got some silkworms and butterworms, but naturally he refuses to eat them.

AHHH! Now we see the truth behind your question! You need an excuse for a new cage! Removable screen panels is a great option IMHO. I go a step further...one of my DIY cages has removable plexiglas panels on the outside of the mesh. I can close it in or open it up as the cham species, the season and house humidity & temp dictates.

I think he looks fine. Not too skinny, especially as he's not full grown yet. Look at the cross section of the base of his tail. It should be smoothly oval from top to bottom. If you can see the tail tendons standing out clearly, he's a bit thin. If the tail is completely round, he's too fat.

 

[MelissaB]

Are the humidity gauges you're using digital or analog (dial) type? The dial old fashioned humidity gauges are notorious for being very inaccurate. That would be the first thing I'd look at.

 

[RPCV]

I wouldn't obsess too much about humidity. Relative humidity ranging from 30-40% in northern climates during winter when your cage temps are in the upper 70s is pretty good. You'll drive yourself crazy and may create other problems (condensation, mold, bacteria) trying to get it to be consistently above 40% RH. If you're concerned then get an ultrasonic humidifier and direct it into the enclosure.

Oh, and get your new cage!

 

[Kevin1192]

AHHH! Now we see the truth behind your question! You need an excuse for a new cage! Removable screen panels is a great option IMHO. I go a step further...one of my DIY cages has removable plexiglas panels on the outside of the mesh. I can close it in or open it up as the cham species, the season and house humidity & temp dictates.

I think he looks fine. Not too skinny, especially as he's not full grown yet. Look at the cross section of the base of his tail. It should be smoothly oval from top to bottom. If you can see the tail tendons standing out clearly, he's a bit thin. If the tail is completely round, he's too fat.

With the mesh enclosure, how do you find moisture containment to be? I'm sort of worried about having the mist/humidifier blasting the wall when it turns on. That was my main attraction to a glass terrarium.. Also, the crickets seem to be able to teleport through the mesh... I can't figure out for the life of me where they're coming out of!

Are the humidity gauges you're using digital or analog (dial) type? The dial old fashioned humidity gauges are notorious for being very inaccurate. That would be the first thing I'd look at.

I currently have two analog hygrometers. The digital thermo/hygro is on its way in the mail. I figured I could use two for now and average them to get a ball park number. They usually indicate the sameish value

I wouldn't obsess too much about humidity. Relative humidity ranging from 30-40% in northern climates during winter when your cage temps are in the upper 70s is pretty good. You'll drive yourself crazy and may create other problems (condensation, mold, bacteria) trying to get it to be consistently above 40% RH. If you're concerned then get an ultrasonic humidifier and direct it into the enclosure.

Oh, and get your new cage!

I thought anything under 50% was getting into the grey area of what's acceptable? It seems like page I read about it has a different number recommended. How exactly do you prevent mold? Is there some techniques or strategies to prevent it? (I haven't searched the forum for that answer yet) and also, what is your say on screen vs glass? I'm just trying to get as many opinions as I can before I pull the trigger.


Currently there is the screen (24x18x36) one on for $65
Also on kijiji I found a glass (18x18x24) one for $50. Cost isn't the main concern.. But I just can't make up my mind on one or the other... Gahh!!!

 

[MelissaB]

I have a 18x18x24 exoterra that I'm setting up for pygmies. I think that would be kind of small, unless your guy is still a small baby.
I have crickets finding their way out of my screen cage, too. I think part of the pvc bottom is raising up from the weight of the potted plants. I need to look and see. It's either that, or the sneaky buggers are waiting for me to open the door and I'm not paying close enough attention.
On both of my screen cages, I have 3 of the sides covered in either clear plastic shower curtain, or coroplast. Both work well to keep in overspray and humidity. I used Dual Lock velcro to attach the plastic to my cages, so that they would be removable. It works really well for the shower curtain. so I can keep it taut, so it looks nice.

 

[Restricted E]

The humidity isn't bad really. The care sheet says 40-70%.

As for temperature, do they sell higher wattage bulbs in Canada? That would help tremendously. You would probably need to adjust that anyway with a new cage as well.

I would get the $65 one.

 

[Kevin1192]

The humidity isn't bad really. The care sheet says 40-70%.

As for temperature, do they sell higher wattage bulbs in Canada? That would help tremendously. You would probably need to adjust that anyway with a new cage as well.

I would get the $65 one.

The ones available in compact fluorescent which is what I'm using come in 13 or 26w, both 5.0 or 10.0. I had the 10.0 but found it was way too hot in his favourite sitting spot and way too many posts/blogs said not to run a 10.0 if you're unsure or if it's a veiled. I also had a 75w basking light that I returned because it was too hot too. So now, it's 3 of the 13w bulbs, two are UVB and one is UVA/natural light with the fancy anti stink thinger on it. One UVA and one UVB are in a dual-deep dome lamp and the other UVB is in a really wide fixture, but isn't being used at the moment as I try to fine tune the enclosure

 

[Kevin1192]

I have a 18x18x24 exoterra that I'm setting up for pygmies. I think that would be kind of small, unless your guy is still a small baby.
I have crickets finding their way out of my screen cage, too. I think part of the pvc bottom is raising up from the weight of the potted plants. I need to look and see. It's either that, or the sneaky buggers are waiting for me to open the door and I'm not paying close enough attention.
On both of my screen cages, I have 3 of the sides covered in either clear plastic shower curtain, or coroplast. Both work well to keep in overspray and humidity. I used Dual Lock velcro to attach the plastic to my cages, so that they would be removable. It works really well for the shower curtain. so I can keep it taut, so it looks nice.

I like your Velcro idea. I think you just convinced me to go with the screen one. Thanks!

 

[MelissaB]

You're welcome. Just make sure it's the good plastic velcro, it holds up really well. It's just like the stuff they use to put ipass units on your windshield. I bought some on Amazon.

 

[Kevin1192]

You're welcome. Just make sure it's the good plastic velcro, it holds up really well. It's just like the stuff they use to put ipass units on your windshield. I bought some on Amazon.

Will do! Now one thing I just noticed is that I screwed up the measurements earlier in this thread. The screen terrarium is 24x18x24, not 36 or 48 tall. (I've been looking at all sorts of terrariums all week, they're blending together now!)

Still go screen?

 

[RPCV]

I thought anything under 50% was getting into the grey area of what's acceptable? It seems like page I read about it has a different number recommended. How exactly do you prevent mold? Is there some techniques or strategies to prevent it? (I haven't searched the forum for that answer yet) and also, what is your say on screen vs glass? I'm just trying to get as many opinions as I can before I pull the trigger.


Currently there is the screen (24x18x36) one on for $65
Also on kijiji I found a glass (18x18x24) one for $50. Cost isn't the main concern.. But I just can't make up my mind on one or the other... Gahh!!!

40- 50% RH is not a "line in the sand" minimum. Those of us stuck with nasty winters have to come to terms with what is practical. If you go with an all glass enclosure or seal up the sides of a screen enclosure with vapor barreir (plastic) then maintaining high RH is easy. If you want air flow to reduce the risk of upper respiratory infections, such as a screen enclosure, then maintaining RH is difficult.

Moisture vapor always moves from warm air to cooler air. So if the temp of your enclosure is in the upper 70s and the room is in the low 70s then your humidity is always trying to move out of the enclosure. Reducing the surface area it can move through via plastic barriers or glass sides simply reduces the rate it will leave the enclosure. If you produce moisture faster than it escapes then relative humidity will increase - but this is at the risk of having stagnent air (its a balancing act).

Humidity refers to the amount of water vapor in the air. It is commonly expressed as percent relative humidity (%RH), defined as the ratio of the amount of moisture in the air compared to the maximum amount which could be in the air at a particular temperature. Warm air has the capacity to hold much more moisture than cold air. So if you increase the temperture of your cage by changing bulbs, or take readings closer to the basking spot, your relative humidity will be less. Even if the ammount of moisture (absolute humidity) is the same.

The most common cause for mold in winter is condensation. This occurs when you increase relative humidity and the moist air comes in contact with a cool surface. If you start noticing condensation forming on the windows or walls of your home then you've taken things too far (or more than the insulation of your home can handle). Blasting a cool mist humidifier near a wall should not be a problem - if the wall's temperature is high enough. So....if it is an interior wall you are probably OK. An exterior wall could cause problems.

All the above BS is probably too much info. I've kept chams healthy with just one plant in a screen enclosure and a small cool mist humidifier next to the cage. Many others on this site have reported the same. The humidifier is on a timer and turns off at night. Just give them plenty to drink during the winter - if they need the moisure they will drink.

 

[Restricted E]

The ones available in compact fluorescent which is what I'm using come in 13 or 26w, both 5.0 or 10.0. I had the 10.0 but found it was way too hot in his favourite sitting spot and way too many posts/blogs said not to run a 10.0 if you're unsure or if it's a veiled. I also had a 75w basking light that I returned because it was too hot too. So now, it's 3 of the 13w bulbs, two are UVB and one is UVA/natural light with the fancy anti stink thinger on it. One UVA and one UVB are in a dual-deep dome lamp and the other UVB is in a really wide fixture, but isn't being used at the moment as I try to fine tune the enclosure

Yea those are designed to put off less heat and use less power to light the room. Do you have regular light bulbs there? Not the compact ones? The compact ones will tell you it puts off as much light as so and so wattage, but the heat is what you want which you will get from a regular light bulb. Try a 40w or 60w. If the 75w was specifically designed for basking then it will put off slightly more heat then a regular 75w bulb due to the way the bulbs are designed. If it's too hot then you could also try moving the heat source upwards more from the cage. You really only need 1 UVB bulb unless your cage is super wide.

 

[Carlton]

All the above BS is probably too much info.

No, actually it is a great description of a complex topic. I liked it and would refer folks to it! Thanks!

 

[Kevin1192]

40- 50% RH is not a "line in the sand" minimum. Those of us stuck with nasty winters have to come to terms with what is practical. If you go with an all glass enclosure or seal up the sides of a screen enclosure with vapor barreir (plastic) then maintaining high RH is easy. If you want air flow to reduce the risk of upper respiratory infections, such as a screen enclosure, then maintaining RH is difficult.

Moisture vapor always moves from warm air to cooler air. So if the temp of your enclosure is in the upper 70s and the room is in the low 70s then your humidity is always trying to move out of the enclosure. Reducing the surface area it can move through via plastic barriers or glass sides simply reduces the rate it will leave the enclosure. If you produce moisture faster than it escapes then relative humidity will increase - but this is at the risk of having stagnent air (its a balancing act).

Humidity refers to the amount of water vapor in the air. It is commonly expressed as percent relative humidity (%RH), defined as the ratio of the amount of moisture in the air compared to the maximum amount which could be in the air at a particular temperature. Warm air has the capacity to hold much more moisture than cold air. So if you increase the temperture of your cage by changing bulbs, or take readings closer to the basking spot, your relative humidity will be less. Even if the ammount of moisture (absolute humidity) is the same.

The most common cause for mold in winter is condensation. This occurs when you increase relative humidity and the moist air comes in contact with a cool surface. If you start noticing condensation forming on the windows or walls of your home then you've taken things too far (or more than the insulation of your home can handle). Blasting a cool mist humidifier near a wall should not be a problem - if the wall's temperature is high enough. So....if it is an interior wall you are probably OK. An exterior wall could cause problems.

All the above BS is probably too much info. I've kept chams healthy with just one plant in a screen enclosure and a small cool mist humidifier next to the cage. Many others on this site have reported the same. The humidifier is on a timer and turns off at night. Just give them plenty to drink during the winter - if they need the moisure they will drink.

thanks for the in depth explanation! I happen to have a warm mist humidifier kickin' around. Is it fine to use or is it more beneficial to just a cool mist? Or does it matter at all?

Yea those are designed to put off less heat and use less power to light the room. Do you have regular light bulbs there? Not the compact ones? The compact ones will tell you it puts off as much light as so and so wattage, but the heat is what you want which you will get from a regular light bulb. Try a 40w or 60w. If the 75w was specifically designed for basking then it will put off slightly more heat then a regular 75w bulb due to the way the bulbs are designed. If it's too hot then you could also try moving the heat source upwards more from the cage. You really only need 1 UVB bulb unless your cage is super wide.

this is what I'm using:

 

[RPCV]

Warm mist is fine. The concern is that it creates the mist by boiling the water then cooling it slightly. The mist remains hot at the point of release so there is a scalding risk. As long as you are aware of this and make sure the temp of the mist is cool enough at the closest possible point of contact then you're in business.

 

[Restricted E]

Okay from what I read about the natural light ion bulb; that is only for light. The reason why your cage is warmer than your room is probably because the little heat it is producing is getting caught in the meshs making it a little warmer. Also I am not sure if it actually neutralizes smells and keeps mold from growing... If you had a proper drain system and kept the cage clean then one would not need to worry about mold and such. Just my opinion.

If you really like that brand then they do have one for heat. Not sure if where you bought it carries it but you could order it from their website.

 

[misshissingroaches]

You have a great set-up currently. btw ur chams r adorable!