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DavidBuchan
Guest
If it's a bit less pink and a bit more fuzzy then it's usually known as a 'fuzzy'
I know I'm going to get yelled at for doing this...
- Thread starter CleaTheChameleon
- Start date
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DavidBuchan
Guest
I reckon he knew that already, but wanted to head off any potential bashing
Not stupid that kid, but maybe underestimated the polite and non-judgemental people of this particular forum....
If your husbandry is perfect and your chameleon is very well hydrated then an occasional pinky is not the end of the world. But I would not suggest doing it more than one or two times a year. Offering vertebrates of any kind at all regularly is begging for trouble with gout and renal disease.
Keeping a carnivore alive by feeding it other animals is one thing. But when you have an animal like a chameleon that can and do thrive wonderfully for their whole lives without it, why even do it? There are risks, and unless you're an experienced chameleon keeper (not a 6 month expert) I doubt your husbandry is perfect enough that you can toy around with things like this totally safely.
So I still beg the question of why? What are you doing that your gutloading and supplementation is not sufficient to keep your cham healthy? I don't think it's "fun" to offer baby animals to be eaten by others (which is why I still don't have a snake even though I love them), but regardless if you agree with that or not, shouldn't you be able to provide a perfectly healthy diet and lifestyle to your chameleon without it? I know I can.
Keeping a carnivore alive by feeding it other animals is one thing. But when you have an animal like a chameleon that can and do thrive wonderfully for their whole lives without it, why even do it? There are risks, and unless you're an experienced chameleon keeper (not a 6 month expert) I doubt your husbandry is perfect enough that you can toy around with things like this totally safely.
So I still beg the question of why? What are you doing that your gutloading and supplementation is not sufficient to keep your cham healthy? I don't think it's "fun" to offer baby animals to be eaten by others (which is why I still don't have a snake even though I love them), but regardless if you agree with that or not, shouldn't you be able to provide a perfectly healthy diet and lifestyle to your chameleon without it? I know I can.
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DavidBuchan
Guest
For me the question why is answered in the same way for the mealworms and flies and waxworms I occasionally use....... It's not about keeping a sterile, substrate free viv for me either - it's unnecessary to use soil or live plants.
You could keep a healthy Chameleon without ever breeding them or handling them too..............but why?
Variety is the spice of life, and trying to recreate a rainforest, within sensible constraints of money, space and time is what I aim for. If you can find me a 3 year old Cham from a Madagascan rainforest who has never eaten a vertebrate or a blue bottle type fly then I'll think again about offering 'unhealthy' food...........
Don't mean to be too blunt about it, just my 2p
Everyone keeps saying this but I have yet to see one bit of proof that predation of vertebrates actually does occur in the wild. Everyone just assumes it does?
And answering the question of "why" with "why not" is quite the cop out.
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DavidBuchan
Guest
Everyone keeps saying this but I have yet to see one bit of proof that predation of vertebrates actually does occur in the wild. Everyone just assumes it does?
And answering the question of "why" with "why not" is quite the cop out.
lol, I have yet to personally see a Cham drink in the wild, but I'm fairly sure it must happen. I've read eyewitness reports of Carnivorous behaviour though, and actually seem to recall an old David Attenborough program in which a big Cham ate a chick from a nest. Don't quote me on that one though, 'cos I'm not certain I remember it right........
The answer I gave was a bit vague,
, but it wasn't "why not" it was -For variety (inc. variety of nutrients)
For convenience (for me - the more important one in the relationship)
Ok, call it fun if you like, but that's actually part of what I keep my lizards for
In summary - whatever seems closest to nature, which is convenient and healthy will do for me.
CleaTheChameleon
New Member
Ferretinmyshoes-I read some of your other posts in other mice threads and I know for a fact that we both have different opinions on this subject. What you poste above is correct and I know not to feed more then one. I understand your thought completely and respect it.
People say it's ok and some people don't get why others do it. Wild chameleons will basically eat anything that comes across them depending on what their appetite is. I know for a fact that chameleons are guilty of eating bigger mice and birds then the fuzzy I offered today. IMO people try to offer a diet very similar to how a wild chameleons diet would be. Im more then positive that OUR chameleons relatives have had mice as treats in their lifetime. Whether in captivity or im the wild. Fuzzies and pinkys are avaibale now for our pets and people go for the opportunity. People should also realize that in the wild, it's not really that common for a mouse to run in a chameleons path. Therefore an occasional mouse or other small mammals are very good for a treat in captivity. Now think for a second. In the wild their are tons of insects. That is why chameleons live off those the most.
I hope you guys were able to understand what I meant.
People say it's ok and some people don't get why others do it. Wild chameleons will basically eat anything that comes across them depending on what their appetite is. I know for a fact that chameleons are guilty of eating bigger mice and birds then the fuzzy I offered today. IMO people try to offer a diet very similar to how a wild chameleons diet would be. Im more then positive that OUR chameleons relatives have had mice as treats in their lifetime. Whether in captivity or im the wild. Fuzzies and pinkys are avaibale now for our pets and people go for the opportunity. People should also realize that in the wild, it's not really that common for a mouse to run in a chameleons path. Therefore an occasional mouse or other small mammals are very good for a treat in captivity. Now think for a second. In the wild their are tons of insects. That is why chameleons live off those the most.
I hope you guys were able to understand what I meant.
You should be able to provide all the nutrients your chameleon needs with good varied gutloading and with variation of more appropriate feeders imo. Many experienced keepers don't have any problem keeping chams at the peak of health with insect only diets. To each their own. I won't be doing it and I recommend caution if anyone choses to do it for the reasons I have already mentioned, which I have seen firsthand.
You are right, I highly doubt there are an abundance of pinkies scampering about the trees for chameleons to eat, which is why they are insectivores and their bodies have adapted to such a diet. This is why they have problems with excessive animal proteins, because it's not something they are generally exposed to in the wild as a regular part of their diet. The difference between something that may (or may not) happen in the wild is that they can chose to eat it or not and they are in the best physical condition because it's their natural environment. That is very different from being in a cage, probably chronically underhydrated, diet lacking, and being offered only one type of food by us. Since the vast majority of people interested in feeding pinkies are not very experienced keepers yet and don't understand the science and medicine behind it (you say more nutrients, but I say too much of the wrong proteins and very high fat) I have to caution against it because without being in optimal conditions it is very easy to offset the balance in these animals. It happens all the time, and I'm the one that gets to clean it up when someone brings in a half dead lizard.
It's nothing personal against anyone. I am a person of science and I need facts and evidence to support something. So far all I've gotten is youtube videos and "it must happen somewhere" in favor of it. And I see the downside in the animals that die from improper care. Until I get better facts in support of it I am going to continue to offer my advice of medical background for the sake of the chameleons. You can take it or leave it, I'm not claiming to be a genius or anything, I just want people to be able to make educated decisions. In the end it's your choice - the same as it's your choice whether or not you want to stop at McDonald's every day on the way home.
CleaTheChameleon
New Member
That reminds me of that guy that was saying he was gonna try to have a healthy dog by just feeding it brand dog food and no treats. Ever.
Just because many experienced keepers state that they have never ever fed off vertebrates, doesn't mean it's that big of a deal when another owner does. We can still gutload our insects and fed one mouse as a treat. Its not that big of a deal.
If you don't ever do it, that's your decision. It won't hurt your chameleon. I just don't understand why people think it's a big deal and very unnessacary.
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DavidBuchan
Guest
This thread needed a bit of balance anyway, lest we started to seem gung-ho. If rodents are offered, you are quite correct to say it should be done very carefully and on a yearly schedule at most....
...I don't know what this proves because people do that every single day and their dogs are very healthy. Did this person's dog die or something?
Chameleons are insectivores, not carnivores, and excessive animal proteins in the diet lead to renal failure and gout due to excessive uric acid buildup in the blood from protein breakdown. Animal proteins are different than plant proteins - they are not broken down in the same way. Gout is incurable in chams and extremely painful - it's a death sentence. Renal failure is a death sentence as well.
That is why. It is important to know the possible consequences of what you do. Not saying that it will happen immediately, or in every case, but it can and does happen with inappropriate diets.
CleaTheChameleon
New Member
I to would like to see studies on how feeding a mouse effects a chameleon. What does it provide or does it not provide anything beneficial is what I want to know. Everyone has certain thoughts and own understandings about this subject. Some say "Oh I can never do that. It's to cute to be fed off". While others wil say "Thats life.". It really all depends what we all think as individuals about it. As long as you know that and understand the fact that you should feed at least two in a chameleons lifetime, if any.....you're good to go.
That's exactly what I'm looking for! Unfortunately research is expensive and no one cares about exotics (financially) so there are very limited funds to do these types of studies. But I'd like to see it so bad that I'm actually considering doing this type of study later when I have credentials (and income)...
CleaTheChameleon
New Member
Youre warning is appreciated and there is nothing wrong with telling others the consequences of what may RARELY happen. Like I stated before, feeding off a mouse to chameleon is NOT nessacary BUT can be done once or twice if you know what you're getting into.
I to hope someone does a study on this one day! Oh chris anderson! Lol
Not as rare as you'd hope...
CleaTheChameleon
New Member
I've never heard it happen. Please inform me with links of cases if you please.
CleaTheChameleon
New Member
Good way of describing it!
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DavidBuchan
Guest
I'm thinking of turning Devils advocate for a bit.............
)
I'm stopped playing Devils advocate, back onto Daves advocate so having agreed with you entirely in principle and taken your sensible warning on board I'll just remind you again that there are many ways to keep a Chameleon healthy if you get the basics right. I feel there is no real disagreement here, just differing styles......but it's funny on the internet how we have to be so careful not to be misinterpreted, right?
I understand the analogy - it makes sense but it is not a perfect analogy. We can choose to eat McDonalds, God only makes the option available (people are supposed to have self control, Chams are not). Also, we are better adapted to eat crap (or be omnivorous, lol) Chams are much more sensitive to animal protein than we are - so it's actually worse than feeding your kid a beef burger every day.
You mean at most 2 right? Why only two if the cham lives to a ripe old age? No hard and fast rules for me. The minute you have a rule it is open to misinterpretation and abuse.......
I'd like to see empirical evidence too, until then I'll try to muddle along in the middle ground (moderation in all things, including moderation
)Like obesity in children, or any kind of pain and suffering I guess. It's a noble calling you have ferretinmyshoes, and a noble name
I'm stopped playing Devils advocate, back onto Daves advocate so having agreed with you entirely in principle and taken your sensible warning on board I'll just remind you again that there are many ways to keep a Chameleon healthy if you get the basics right. I feel there is no real disagreement here, just differing styles......but it's funny on the internet how we have to be so careful not to be misinterpreted, right?
