Importing

[Olimpia]

That's fine, but that's my opinion regarding the original question as to why there are so many imported chameleons in general. I never made the distinction between rare or not rare (although, even the non-rare still have crap breeding success in the States. Which is why they are so heavily imported. Because there is no CB market or demand for one.)

Olimpia you fail to see that we had a great stable of Kinyongia breeders that stopped keeping chameleons (some of them still have got eggs incubating) since they started family's (Chad and Louis) as of a couple years ago 2012ish that are being slowly replaced (Mike, Possibly a couple others).

Yes, I said there were/are a small few, some of whom have fallen out of the hobby due to other responsibilities. And sure, who may be replaced by another small few. It's still nothing compared to the number of people working with panthers and veileds. That's why I said that the number of people working with rare species is probably a relatively small list. To clarify: not non-existent, just small. If it were potentially more profitable I think you'd see more people with genuine interest pick up projects like these and/or stay in the hobby longer.

And all the examples you list are still tiny numbers of people. The quad group is about 5 people if I remember my last convo with Laurie, and let's assume there are a few more that I don't know about and who may not be on the forum. However, still not hundreds (probably not even dozens.) One jackson's farmer? Then we have you, not yet breeding a few species. So far, not statistically significant numbers Jeremy lol.

Again, I'm not against you on any of this. But we obviously don't see the same thing. I'm all for getting more interest in breeding rare and exotic species but you have to admit that it takes a lot of time and a lot of money, and I'd argue that 90% (or much more, honestly) of the chameleon-keeping community in the States is totally content with keeping just a couple pet chameleons and calling it a day. And it's only that small percent that is crazy enough to invest that money and time into a rarer species. The general public has interest in rare species the same way most of us have interest in tigers at the zoo; fun to look at but you don't want to buy a pair. So I argue again, people like to look at pretty pictures but now many of those people actually buy a breeding group and dedicate themselves to the goal of breeding? No where near the number of people who will buy a pair of veileds and panthers and breed those instead.

 

[Motherlode Chameleon]

That's fine, but that's my opinion regarding the original question as to why there are so many imported chameleons in general. I never made the distinction between rare or not rare (although, even the non-rare still have crap breeding success in the States. Which is why they are so heavily imported. Because there is no CB market or demand for one.)



Yes, I said there were/are a small few, some of whom have fallen out of the hobby due to other responsibilities. And sure, who may be replaced by another small few. It's still nothing compared to the number of people working with panthers and veileds. That's why I said that the number of people working with rare species is probably a relatively small list. To clarify: not non-existent, just small. If it were potentially more profitable I think you'd see more people with genuine interest pick up projects like these and/or stay in the hobby longer.

And all the examples you list are still tiny numbers of people. The quad group is about 5 people if I remember my last convo with Laurie, and let's assume there are a few more that I don't know about and who may not be on the forum. However, still not hundreds (probably not even dozens.) One jackson's farmer? Then we have you, not yet breeding a few species. So far, not statistically significant numbers Jeremy lol.

Again, I'm not against you on any of this. But we obviously don't see the same thing. I'm all for getting more interest in breeding rare and exotic species but you have to admit that it takes a lot of time and a lot of money, and I'd argue that 90% (or much more, honestly) of the chameleon-keeping community in the States is totally content with keeping just a couple pet chameleons and calling it a day. And it's only that small percent that is crazy enough to invest that money and time into a rarer species. The general public has interest in rare species the same way most of us have interest in tigers at the zoo; fun to look at but you don't want to buy a pair. So I argue again, people like to look at pretty pictures but now many of those people actually buy a breeding group and dedicate themselves to the goal of breeding? No where near the number of people who will buy a pair of veileds and panthers and breed those instead.

Olimpia

You statement on this thread are extremely generalized. The Gracefuls, Senegals and Flapneck is a topic for another thread.

There is not an over abundance of experience chameleon keepers (we have got a good group though) on the Chameleon Forums. I would say all those experienced keepers that are here are the ones that are keeping and breeding rare species. I for one have only occasionally breed chameleons since I joined the Chameleons Forums, however I plan to continue on breeding rare species more if I can manage more time. The situation appears to me that we have got a lot of big interest (actually more than a couple of international imports organize through the Chameleon Forums most of which I am still interested about). You keep knocking keepers who would form breeding cooperation or buy rare or exotic species. Olimpia I would not knock them allow them to happen be apart of a Melleri breeding group there is nothing small about that. You said you wanted more? There is big interest especially with the new quotas from Madagascar start arriving. With regards to these new Madagascar imports they are not going to be non existent or small interest. These quotas are going to be huge and change the world chameleon hobby, especially in North America who has not seen these species in two decades, especially if exports are done properly. With new legal CITES quota Calumma parsonii parsonii the holy grail of chameleons (prices in the thousands), meaning your idea small interest is not accurate again.

Best Regards
Jeremy A. Rich

 

[Motherlode Chameleon]

Its been a while since I've been on the forums here, but I'd like to raise my hand on this one too. I've been breeding and keeping T. deremensis for years now, and its not easy. Both you and Mike have made some good points. Its a tough market out there for anything other than panthers and veiled chams most days. I've have often wondered why people don't focus more specifically on acclimating imports so that they are healthy and able to breed more successfully in captivity, but like you said Olimpia, getting a breeding project together for some of these trickier species really does takes a lot of time and care. And it is unfortunate that we don't have a market that respects this for the most part.

Nicole Paddock
T.R. Herp

Hi Nicole

I almost did not recognize you on these Forums it has been that long. I have got the captive bred male Trioceros deremensis you and Luis sold me in 2012. He is doing great in the greenhouse and I want another female to breed with him. Expect me to send a pm or email sometime later this year.

Best Regards
Jeremy A. Rich

 

[Olimpia]

Jeremy, what do you read when I write? I haven't "knocked" anyone or discouraged anyone at all, so I don't know why you think I'm writing with animosity towards people who do breed beyond panthers and veileds. I just said the numbers were small relative to the number of people who decide to invest in breeding common species, but that I wish it were different. And I am part of melleri communities and share info back and forth regularly with several individuals (we are, however, also a small group.) But I'm going to stop now because we're not getting anywhere, obviously.

 

[Mike Fisher]

So I argue again, people like to look at pretty pictures but now many of those people actually buy a breeding group and dedicate themselves to the goal of breeding? No where near the number of people who will buy a pair of veileds and panthers and breed those instead.

Here is my biggest fear.... What will I do with them after they hatch if there is no market? Probably the main reason we don't see a bunch of people breeding the less common species.

It does have me concerned. It makes little sense to sit on eggs for a year and a half and then end up selling them for less than they cost to produce when I could just keep panthers and have a guaranteed profit.

I have no interest in breeding panthers BTW. They are great chams, but I like a challenge and learning new things.

 

[Saldarya]

Here is my biggest fear.... What will I do with them after they hatch if there is no market? Probably the main reason we don't see a bunch of people breeding the less common species.

It does have me concerned. It makes little sense to sit on eggs for a year and a half and then end up selling them for less than they cost to produce when I could just keep panthers and have a guaranteed profit.

I have no interest in breeding panthers BTW. They are great chams, but I like a challenge and learning new things.

Mike, I think you bring up the core issue in regards to time versus 'reward' in regards to breeding the uncommon species. I dont think it is neccesarily a money thing as most of these people are in it primarily for the effort and experience, but at the end of hte day, you do have to do something with all the babies.

I have given this quite a bit of thought and this is my conclusion.

From a marketing perspective (and that is what I do quite a bit of) a market will have to be established, possibly at a loss or breakeven, before the masses would be involved.

Lets use a species that I have seen some activity on lately, t. deremensis. I nice animal that can be bred in captivity, takes a bit more skill than your basic panther/veiled, but can be handled by someone who is paying attention.

At this point there appears to be little interest by the masses due to lack of information (to the masses) and general activity on social media. Now, get a few breeders together who can commit to producing these animals on a regular basis, promote them, get them out in the hands of the masses at a good price, and their popularity will grow over time increasing demand and then price. (this species may or may not be a good example of this, but you get the idea.)

Now we can argue the merits of whether this SHOULD be done, but from the strict perspective of creating a market, this is how you would do it, and it would take a least a few years to get going if people were breeding now.

Just some thoughts

 

[Mike Fisher]

From a marketing perspective (and that is what I do quite a bit of) a market will have to be established, possibly at a loss or breakeven, before the masses would be involved.

Lets use a species that I have seen some activity on lately, t. deremensis.

Quadricornis would be another one. I could see this happening with johnstonii easily if the current USA breeders have success. I think the key to these two is that they are not easily imported into the US.

That is probably the biggest hurdle I'm going to have with K. multi. and K. mats. Cheap fully grown imports.

True, it is not purely for money but at the same time, maintaining breeding colonies of these species is expensive and time consuming and at some point it would be nice to at least break even on the electric and cricket bill. I claim a hobby based business and the IRS does not look kindly on businesses that are designed to lose money year after year.

 

[Trace]

Are we being self defeating here in North America? If someone new to the hobby comes up to me and asks what type of chameleon I should get I will automatically say a Panther or a Veiled because of the availability of healthy captive bred stock. Their experience will be a better one if their new pet doesn’t die in a few weeks. Sure I’ve worked with a number of other nifty species that would be great beginner chameleons but the chances of them finding a decent semi-healthy specimen is almost nil. If we aren’t suggesting things like Flapnecks people won’t breed Flapnecks because they won’t sell.

I’ve been keeping herps for a VERY long time and I see so many people get into to hobby and get bitten by the bug after a few weeks of ownership. They have some initial success in keeping then all of the sudden they know everything about chameleons. That’s another topic I won’t get into here. However one of the related things that happens is that they think they can make money by breeding. They have a nice looking male Panther; they see adverts from people selling offspring for 300 upwards of 700 dollars a pop depending on locality and think that if they breed their animal they can make a tidy profit. That is not the case. After the failures start and the expenses pile up they get out of the hobby. Apart from a very small handful of members most of the people reading this thread will not be around in a years time.

Another issue in a lot of circumstances is apathy. Saldarya sort of touched on this as well and it ties in with what I just said. There are a LOT of extremely experienced keepers on CF but do we see those people post or offer ideas? Not really. It gets tiring having to constantly correct people or worse yet be told that our ideas are wrong because it doesn’t fit the ‘norms’ of parroted chameleon husbandry. Not that those Six Month Experts are entirely wrong but their experience isn’t complete. Just because a chameleon is fat doesn’t automatically mean it’s gravid. Just because a chameleon has sunken eyes it doesn’t mean it’s dehydrated. Don’t get me started about the crap and misinformation I see on a lot of chameleon groups on social media. Unfortunately the OP and their animal suffer because of this misinformation and they then don’t stick with the hobby long term. Their thinking is I don’t want to get another chameleon because it’s just going to die too. To sum up, if this good information from the truly experienced isn't being shared then how do we keep people interested. It's hard too because Veiled and Panther photo threads always have more replies than someone showing off their Kinyongia. Eventually the Kinyongia people stop posting.

Another issue is that some species are called ‘The Holy Grail of Chameleons’. That needs to stop. A lot of people buy Parsons because it’s a badge of honour. I have a Parsons so I’m the greatest keeper around. It doesn’t matter if they don’t know how to keep the dang thing but more importantly they have a bigger virtual unit than the next person. I know that rule doesn’t apply to all Parsons keepers but for some of them it does. Sorry guys. Again I’m speaking from 30 years of experience here. I’ve seen it before and I will see it again and again and again with these few so called “prized” species.

I’m sorry to say but our track record for keeping and breeding some of these species is abysmal.

 

[Motherlode Chameleon]

Jeremy, what do you read when I write? I haven't "knocked" anyone or discouraged anyone at all, so I don't know why you think I'm writing with animosity towards people who do breed beyond panthers and veileds. I just said the numbers were small relative to the number of people who decide to invest in breeding common species, but that I wish it were different. And I am part of melleri communities and share info back and forth regularly with several individuals (we are, however, also a small group.) But I'm going to stop now because we're not getting anywhere, obviously.

Olimpia

The perception you just stated is great. I have not got a problem with that. Your writing prior to this post just seemed to me as nay saying that can be anti growth to breeding programs for the less commonly seen species in the hobby (regardless if they are ever bred on the scale of Panthers or Veileds Chameleons). I happen to think there is good prospects that we could have substantial growth and improvements of breeding programs in North America and elsewhere. However nay saying or saying it probably won't ever happen does not help/condone positive growth of these hobbyist program.

Best Regards
Jeremy A. Rich

 

[Motherlode Chameleon]

Are we being self defeating here in North America?
.
Another issue is that some species are called ‘The Holy Grail of Chameleons’. That needs to stop. A lot of people buy Parsons because it’s a badge of honour. I have a Parsons so I’m the greatest keeper around. It doesn’t matter if they don’t know how to keep the dang thing but more importantly they have a bigger virtual unit than the next person. I know that rule doesn’t apply to all Parsons keepers but for some of them it does. Sorry guys. Again I’m speaking from 30 years of experience here. I’ve seen it before and I will see it again and again and again with these few so called “prized” species.

Trace

We maybe self defeating here in North America?

I am one who considers Calumma parsonii parsonii as the "Holy Grail of Chameleon". Trace sorry if people calling Parsons the "Holy Grail of Chameleons" eeks you. However being raised with a couple of Parsonii breeding programs in the 1990's in the California Bay Area and talking with the big Parsons keepers from Southern California (Ardi and Ken) has engrained that image in my mind. No other keepers would go to such an extent for their chameleons. Most all, even the Mellers keepers, would not even approach the grandeur as the Parsonii keepers have. There are many other great species however Parsonii has got an aura that the rest have not got in my eyes. I have not said the "Holy Grail" line in a long time though?

Best Regards
Jeremy A. Rich

 

[Motherlode Chameleon]

Here is my biggest fear.... What will I do with them after they hatch if there is no market? Probably the main reason we don't see a bunch of people breeding the less common species.

It does have me concerned. It makes little sense to sit on eggs for a year and a half and then end up selling them for less than they cost to produce when I could just keep panthers and have a guaranteed profit.

I have no interest in breeding panthers BTW. They are great chams, but I like a challenge and learning new things.

Mike

This topic is not for the squeamish, however agriculturally speaking some farmers would not continue to breed their animals if they think they could take care of or not sell and make a profit from there farm animal babies. If your Kinyongia matschiei were to produce 4 clutches of eggs and you could only take care of and sell two clutches my guidance would be to only breed or incubate for two clutches of Kinyongia matschiei eggs. It is a controversial topic.

Best Regards
Jeremy A. Rich

 

[Mike Fisher]

Mike

This topic is not for the squeamish, however agriculturally speaking some farmers would not continue to breed their animals if they think they could take care of or not sell and make a profit from there farm animal babies. If your Kinyongia matschiei were to produce 4 clutches of eggs and you could only take care of and sell two clutches my guidance would be to only incubate two clutches of Kinyongia matschiei eggs. It is a controversial topic.

Best Regards
Jeremy A. Rich

I can take care of them and profit is secondary. I would never consider not incubating the eggs. I'd give them away if I had to. Better yet, trades with other breeders.....quads and deremensis on my list. Please no pm's asking for free chams.....

 

[Motherlode Chameleon]

I can take care of them and profit is secondary. I would never consider not incubating the eggs. I'd give them away if I had to. Please no pm's asking for free chams just yet.....

Mike

I would not ask you for free chameleons.

Best Regards
Jeremy A. Rich

 

[Mike Fisher]

Are we being self defeating here in North America?

Yes. I've found K. multituberculata to be a very easy chameleon, one that I would recommend to first time keepers if they could get CB. There are others too, like T. quadricornis. Both of those are good for keepers in the northern part of the USA. Would not recommend them for Arizona.

The first question I usually ask is "Where do you live?" Then make recommendations based on that. There are many species that have been bred in Europe that would do well in the USA with the right local climate.

 

[Mike Fisher]

Mike

I would not ask you for free chameleons.

Best Regards
Jeremy A. Rich

LOL, I know, that was not directed at you, just anyone who stumbled across this thread and wanted to take advantage of my offer.

 

[CarlC]

Great thread everyone!

Carl

 

[Motherlode Chameleon]

If your in the hobby and are interested in breeding not just because you are passionate about chameleons in general, the first hand experience with biology at home, or the academic opportunity to study an amazing family of reptiles. You are leaning towards looking for a species that have got financial opportunities for financial gain such as seen with the cash cow of the hobby Furcifer pardalis. The new Madagascar quotas species are going to provide a new list of species that are going to offer many new species that can provide greater financial opportunity especially if the North American markets mirror the markets in Europe at all. Even though these species are known for their difficulty to breed.

There of course are going to be available Calumma parsonii parsonii and the prospects of all the species color phases (Orange Eyes, Yellow Lips, Yellow Giants, Cristifers, and possibly Green Giants). There is the Elephant Eared Chameleons Calumma brevicornis, malthe and crypticum along with Furcifer campani that seem to go for prices about the same as Panthers Chameleons from what I have seen and expect. Then lastly there are two species Calumma oshaughnessyi (I have seen sold at much higher prices that Orange Eye Parsonii) and Furcifer bifudus that could end up selling regularly at prices higher than Calumma parsonii parsonii. If people think the hobby is lacking species that are not lucrative enough to keep and breed to keep the hobby going these 11 new quota chameleons I just listed if done properly should solve that problem.

Best Regards
Jeremy A. Rich

 

[laurie]

I may as well toss my opinion in the middle. I breed quads! That is it, I breed quads. Could I have sold everyone that I have hatched from my last clutches? Yes, I had a lot more people wanting to purchase, than I had quad babies. I only sold 4 babies. That is because the others who are breeding with me, were given what ever chams the wanted before any were sold. When I say given, I mean given. No money changed hands. That is how we are working. We are going to establish quads in the US. Period. All of us have put our money where our mouth is. We all look at what we need as a group. If one of us needs a quad that one of the other 2 has, the quad goes in the box. We are committed to our quad project, we will spend years and $$$ to make it happen. That is what I feel it will take to establish a captive population. Hopefully at some point we will get some of our money back.

I think this type of breeding will only work with a small group, who all share the same goal. I don't think you could get 12 people to all work this closely, and keep the goal being for the group be a success - not anyone of them be a success on their own.

I am ready to hear why what we are doing will not work long term.

 

[Motherlode Chameleon]

I may as well toss my opinion in the middle. I breed quads! That is it, I breed quads. Could I have sold everyone that I have hatched from my last clutches? Yes, I had a lot more people wanting to purchase, than I had quad babies. I only sold 4 babies. That is because the others who are breeding with me, were given what ever chams the wanted before any were sold. When I say given, I mean given. No money changed hands. That is how we are working. We are going to establish quads in the US. Period. All of us have put our money where our mouth is. We all look at what we need as a group. If one of us needs a quad that one of the other 2 has, the quad goes in the box. We are committed to our quad project, we will spend years and $$$ to make it happen. That is what I feel it will take to establish a captive population. Hopefully at some point we will get some of our money back.

I think this type of breeding will only work with a small group, who all share the same goal. I don't think you could get 12 people to all work this closely, and keep the goal being for the group be a success - not anyone of them be a success on their own.

I am ready to hear why what we are doing will not work long term.

I hear from the sounds of it (Bob) that you are recruiting too. I think as these breeding groups evolve they will keep going long term and become more established. Most of the people that are local to me that I talk to about breeding programs are not even members to these forums LOL.

Best Regards
Jeremy A. Rich

 

[Trace]

If your in the hobby and are interested in breeding not just because you are passionate about chameleons in general, the first hand experience with biology at home, or the academic opportunity to study an amazing family of reptiles. You are leaning towards looking for a species that have got financial opportunities for financial gain such as seen with the cash cow of the hobby Furcifer pardalis. The new Madagascar quotas species are going to provide a new list of species that are going to offer many new species that can provide greater financial opportunity especially if the North American markets mirror the markets in Europe at all. Even though these species are known for their difficulty to breed.

There of course are going to be available Calumma parsonii parsonii and the prospects of all the species color phases (Orange Eyes, Yellow Lips, Yellow Giants, Cristifers, and possibly Green Giants). There is the Elephant Eared Chameleons Calumma brevicornis, malthe and crypticum along with Furcifer campani that seem to go for prices about the same as Panthers Chameleons from what I have seen and expect. Then lastly there are two species Calumma oshaughnessyi (I have seen sold at much higher prices that Orange Eye Parsonii) and Furcifer bifudus that could end up selling regularly at prices higher than Calumma parsonii parsonii. If people think the hobby is lacking species that are not lucrative enough to keep and breed to keep the hobby going these 11 new quota chameleons I just listed if done properly should solve that problem.

Best Regards
Jeremy A. Rich

I don’t think people complain about the lack of species in North America, I find people don’t pony up and purchase them when they are available.

Furcifer campani entered the hobby two years ago after a long hiatus. As anyone had any long term success with them so far? None. Nada. Zip. Please don’t assume that any of these new Calumma species are going to be established in a short while.

Good luck with your Calumma, I certainly won’t buy into them now.

I may as well toss my opinion in the middle. I breed quads! That is it, I breed quads. Could I have sold everyone that I have hatched from my last clutches? Yes, I had a lot more people wanting to purchase, than I had quad babies. I only sold 4 babies. That is because the others who are breeding with me, were given what ever chams the wanted before any were sold. When I say given, I mean given. No money changed hands. That is how we are working. We are going to establish quads in the US. Period. All of us have put our money where our mouth is. We all look at what we need as a group. If one of us needs a quad that one of the other 2 has, the quad goes in the box. We are committed to our quad project, we will spend years and $$$ to make it happen. That is what I feel it will take to establish a captive population. Hopefully at some point we will get some of our money back.

I think you guys will be successful because your group consists of extremely long term keepers who know the proper husbandry and the ins and outs of the hobby. You know that establishing these animals takes a lot of time and commitment and you won’t see the fruits of your labours for many, many years. A lot of people don’t understand that and want to see immediate results but won't because they don't understand the animals needs. I’ve seen too many other groups fail because it’s done for solely for status or money.