Interesting Raiden Faly

[lslcronk]

I tired that awhile back but got the same thing............ I was told that I was comparing humans to chameleons lol. It happens in all mammals, reptiles, amphibians and so on. Label it as what it looks like since we are on the fence. If it is red, white and blue call it a Faly. It it has more of one color or another call it a cross. We all know what we have so go with your gut instinct and you best professional opinions.

I really wish Raiden were here to see all the crap he caused me lol. I miss you bud.

Drew

Well Drew, I don't have an opinion other than the odd ball babies I have seen (that caused all the drama last summer) were freaking beautiful! You have beautiful animals, and if you ever have any you don't want, send them to me, I will take them!! I love the unusual!!

 

[a2zcreatures]

No disrespect to anyone on here but i would bet that thats a falybanja. I have one and he is very similar.

 

[Texas Ranger]

Good write up but you got two thing wrong IMO there are 2 kinds of nosybes in the wild proven there are the green Nosy bes and then there are the true blues from different parts of Nosy be. Just like there are two for sure different Nosy falys the blue faly like my wc Poseidon and my green faly hates they are both wc falys but have two different looks Poseidon dosent show white unless he sees a female or is on patrol of his cage or gets pissed. He is baby blue and blue until one of those things happen. And with hates he is super white and green/blue color when the same things happen to him but at rest just chillin he is green and with a white off green background color..and both are real 100% faly just from different parts of the island IMO.

Ok-- so I wanted to throw in a couple of points that kind of came up while I went through this thread.

Though geographic isolation is generally the cause for the coloration diversity, these are all still the same species and thus, color potential is still residual in the genes of all locales. We do not and have not done the research to determine how long this isolation has been for each locale, and the adaptive radiation may have only occurred in recent history. We do know that it hasn't even been long enough to cause speciation-- which is why these can interbreed readily.

People who are stating that hybrid until proven otherwise-- do not fully understand the nature of genetics. Yes, though highly unlikely, it is possible for two pure bred lines to exhibit traits that are found in neither of the parents. We do not know whether some of these coloration traits are sex driven; as the research is not there to back it.

I think that people just don't want to see greens in their faly's so there has been a crusade to discredit lines that appear to be different. To this, I would like to point to "True Blue" Nosy Be's. As many have seen this line; most of us also know that WC Be's are not True Blue, they have greens, blues, and sometimes reds. Just because they are different does not mean that they are not Faly's-- until someone goes throughout the wild of Nosy Faly and observes all of the males; we only know based on what is being shipped out.

I understand some peoples concerns with "pure bred falys" - just be careful with separation of opinion and fact.

 

[Olimpia]

I don't know if I would say that there are only two types of Nosy bes, for example. If by "true blue" you mean only the ones that are solid blue, then you automatically have to make a third type to include all the shades of blue/green that have lots of red on the face and/or body. And I had that one that was turquoise when he wanted to be or a light yellow all over with black and teal bars. So there's a lot of variety in this locale as well!

 

[drcrossfire]

I don't know if I would say that there are only two types of Nosy bes, for example. If by "true blue" you mean only the ones that are solid blue, then you automatically have to make a third type to include all the shades of blue/green that have lots of red on the face and/or body. And I had that one that was turquoise when he wanted to be or a light yellow all over with black and teal bars. So there's a lot of variety in this locale as well!

Exactly- variation can occur within locales was my point... so why not in falys

 

[Texas Ranger]

I don't know if I would say that there are only two types of Nosy bes, for example. If by "true blue" you mean only the ones that are solid blue, then you automatically have to make a third type to include all the shades of blue/green that have lots of red on the face and/or body. And I had that one that was turquoise when he wanted to be or a light yellow all over with black and teal bars. So there's a lot of variety in this locale as well!

True but all nosybes have some red in them.. and at the same time wasent yours cb if so they could have been from breeding true blue to green nosybes.. but I don't know for sure its JMO.

 

[Texas Panther Man]

Ok-- so I wanted to throw in a couple of points that kind of came up while I went through this thread.

Though geographic isolation is generally the cause for the coloration diversity, these are all still the same species and thus, color potential is still residual in the genes of all locales. We do not and have not done the research to determine how long this isolation has been for each locale, and the adaptive radiation may have only occurred in recent history. We do know that it hasn't even been long enough to cause speciation-- which is why these can interbreed readily.

People who are stating that hybrid until proven otherwise-- do not fully understand the nature of genetics. Yes, though highly unlikely, it is possible for two pure bred lines to exhibit traits that are found in neither of the parents. We do not know whether some of these coloration traits are sex driven; as the research is not there to back it.

I think that people just don't want to see greens in their faly's so there has been a crusade to discredit lines that appear to be different. To this, I would like to point to "True Blue" Nosy Be's. As many have seen this line; most of us also know that WC Be's are not True Blue, they have greens, blues, and sometimes reds. Just because they are different does not mean that they are not Faly's-- until someone goes throughout the wild of Nosy Faly and observes all of the males; we only know based on what is being shipped out.

I understand some peoples concerns with "pure bred falys" - just be careful with separation of opinion and fact.

I agree with this in that we dont know what locales are the base genetics of the faly locale. Was this locale formed from two or more locales of panther chameleons ending up on this island and breeding and line breeding out these characteristics til they developed these faly traits we desire. I see falys as a cross of two or possibly more locales that through genetic isolation over many generations formed the unique locale we see today. Mpo....

And alot of the ppl throwing around opinions havent even seen a faly in person. Or watched how they mature and change throughout their lifetime just like the other locales do. Quit looking at fired up pics and basing your assumptions on those images.

 

[clarkrw3]

Exactly- variation can occur within locales was my point... so why not in falys

It can and DOES but there is a limit to what variation is seen. Otherwise go ahead and use that as a slippers slope argument to do away with all locales. As long as someone says it's a said locale it must be because there is all this variation.
For a locale to be a locale there is a described look both color and head structure. Variation yes, but it still needs to fit into the described set.

 

[clarkrw3]

I agree with this in that we dont know what locales are the base genetics of the faly locale. Was this locale formed from two or more locales of panther chameleons ending up on this island and breeding and line breeding out these characteristics til they developed these faly traits we desire. I see falys as a cross of two or possibly more locales that through genetic isolation over many generations formed the unique locale we see today. Mpo....

And alot of the ppl throwing around opinions havent even seen a faly in person. Or watched how they mature and change throughout their lifetime just like the other locales do. Quit looking at fired up pics and basing your assumptions on those images.

Your right with the locales being a mix of other locales which were set on their own path due to genetic isolation like I mentioned earlier so Nosy Faly being close to Nosy Be and Ambanja are for sure similar just like ambanja is more similar to Ambilobe then other locals....why Sirama is lumped in with Ambilobe most of the time and why Nosy Komba looks so similar to Nosy Be, and why Antsiranana looks SO close to Nosy Mitsio. But all that doesn't mean they are all the same.

Your right just like any cham and panthers particularly they show many different colors....but in the same genera

Here is a Faly showing many different shades....but the same genera of color

And none of these are fired up shots.

 

[Texas Panther Man]

Your right just like any cham and panthers particularly they show many different colors....but in the same genera

Here is a Faly showing many different shades....but the same genera of color

And none of these are fired up shots.

You just agreed with my point then. My point being if the faly locale was based on more than one locales genetics then we would see the occasional oddball faly in clutches. Your seeing more of one locales genetics drift in that direction in that male or females offspring.

 

[clarkrw3]

You just agreed with my point then. My point being if the faly locale was based on more than one locales genetics then we would see the occasional oddball faly in clutches. Your seeing more of one locales genetics drift in that direction in that male or females offspring.

I am agreeing to your original premise that areas close share some similarities not that wild Faly's are going to occasionally pop out an Ambanja They have been isolated long enough for the gene pool to be sorted and DRIFT in it's OWN direction isolated from the source. That drift is set due to some unknown competitive advantage.

 

[robmd1]

I do as well.
I think the OP's odd ball one is very cool, and i would even consider breeding it simply to gt that pattern again. but thats me. i like strange things.


I have the typical red white and blue faly. hes very cool looking as well.

and i think that doing what you said is just fine. sell them as falys, but let the buyer know.. thats all you can do.

hmmm you have a "typical" red white an blue faly? cool can you post a pic of him so we can see a typical red white an blue faly?

 

[Texas Panther Man]

You cant have it both ways then. You cant agree with one aspect of what Im saying and then say that all falys should look like xyz. And the whole Ambanja comment, whered that come from anyway.

 

[drcrossfire]

So.. what i'm getting from this is maybe there needs to be a chameleon society much like AKC which sets breed standards.

Then there can be Falys-- And the AKC cham version standard. Doesn't mean they aren't faly's.. just not the determined "standard"

 

[Canny Chams]

im not really worried about the value lowering on my chams, i was planning on lowering the price of my falys a good ammount anyway to compete with the bigger breeders.

I have a nice ch faly clutch proving out now and this fist clutch is staying with me so I will be able to post as they grow and color up and turn in to adults.

Im looking forward to seeing it

 

[Hoj]

im not really worried about the value lowering on my chams, i was planning on lowering the price of my falys a good ammount anyway to compete with the bigger breeders.



Im looking forward to seeing it

mee too, i think you should send a few my way

 

[Texas Ranger]

im not really worried about the value lowering on my chams, i was planning on lowering the price of my falys a good ammount anyway to compete with the bigger breeders.



Im looking forward to seeing it

mee too, i think you should send a few my way

I will keep everyone posted on these.

 

[clarkrw3]

You just agreed with my point then. My point being if the faly locale was based on more than one locales genetics then we would see the occasional oddball faly in clutches. Your seeing more of one locales genetics drift in that direction in that male or females offspring.

My ambanja comment was based on you saying since there is more than one locales genetics involved you can see the occasional oddball faly....like the ambanja genes are just sitting back there and are waiting to pop out on the unsuspecting breeder

I am agreeing to your original premise that areas close share some similarities not that wild Faly's are going to occasionally pop out an Ambanja They have been isolated long enough for the gene pool to be sorted and DRIFT in it's OWN direction isolated from the source. That drift is set due to some unknown competitive advantage.

You cant have it both ways then. You cant agree with one aspect of what Im saying and then say that all falys should look like xyz. And the whole Ambanja comment, whered that come from anyway.

Yes I can have it both ways because that is the way micro evolution works (which goes all the way back to Darwin) A long time ago probably many locales washed up on a beach on the island of Nosy Faly, probably during a big storm where they were blown, floated, set adrift on logs or swam etc. Once on the island they procreated and specific traits were able to provide a reproductive advantage and genetic drift was started...as they genetically drifted they developed a specific head and color type (there has to be something in the genetic code of panthers that allows for this very readily compared to other chameleon species). Once this genetic drift and genetic isolation happens these genes are "replaced" over hundreds of generations. Genetic code doesn't just keep adding up, being stored and will pop out every once in a while. There is a specific amount of code and as the code is isolated and mixed in isolation it becomes more similar.

 

[Canny Chams]

I tired that awhile back but got the same thing............ I was told that I was comparing humans to chameleons lol. It happens in all mammals, reptiles, amphibians and so on. Label it as what it looks like since we are on the fence. If it is red, white and blue call it a Faly. It it has more of one color or another call it a cross. We all know what we have so go with your gut instinct and you best professional opinions.

I really wish Raiden were here to see all the crap he caused me lol. I miss you bud.

Drew

Wait? Raiden died? WHY AM I ALWAYS THE LAST TO KNOW ABOUT THIS CR*P
RIP Raiden, you were the nicest looking cham i have ever seen

 

[drcrossfire]

How do you know how long they have been genetically isolated? Could only be a hundred years for all we know