Is my Cham crying?

[AnamCara]

I didn’t catch that. Ya I found out they have a hypothalamus during my googling as well lol.

My main point stays though -- base emotions are responses to stimuli -- so yes, I think chameleons experience emotions in response to stimuli in their environment. That is the way all things navigate the world. emotions are more developed and complex instincts. Now does a chameleon love/want attention in the way say a child or even a dog would -- Nah. They hate us all -- to be sure!

Should we colloquially refer to them as emotions? Probably not for the exact reason Brody mentioned -- it can personify chameleons to young and inexperienced keepers to mistake issues for "cuddles" or some other human-like response.

 

[Lennoncham]

My main point stays though -- base emotions are responses to stimuli -- so yes, I think chameleons experience emotions in response to stimuli in their environment. That is the way all things navigate the world. Instincts and emotions and I think some would other emotions are more developed and complex instincts. Now does a chameleon love/want attention in the way say a child or even a dog would -- Nah. They hate us all -- to be sure!

Should we colloquially refer to them as emotions? Probably not for the exact reason Brody mentioned -- it can personify chameleons to young and inexperienced keepers to mistake issues for "cuddles" or some other human-like response.

Ya they must just have the anger, aggressive behaviour part of the hypothalamus lol.

Yupe you guys are right they are not emotions they are instinctive reactions.

 

[Brodybreaux25]

Now I’m even more lost.

“The hypothalamus is responsible for regulating your hunger, thirst, response to pain, levels of pleasure, sexual satisfaction, anger and aggressive behavior, and more. “

“ If the hippocampus is damaged, a person cannot build new memories, and lives instead in a strange world where everything they experience just fades away”

“if the amygdala is removed, animals get very tame and no longer respond to things that would have caused rage before”

So how do we explain chameleon behaviour if they don’t have anything to do these functions?

Dude, you can’t just google this stuff and except to understand it. Lol

To put it simply, were not wired the way they are.

 

[Lennoncham]

Dude, you can’t just google this stuff and except to understand it. Lol

To put it simply, were not wired the way they are.

Um ya I get that we’re not wired the same.

I can’t google stuff and expect to understand it? How else am I supposed to learn? I learn by reading and discussing stuff... sry we can’t all be as smart as you.

 

[Brodybreaux25]

Um ya I get that we’re not wired the same.

I can’t google stuff and expect to understand it? How else am I supposed to learn? I learn by reading and discussing stuff... sry we can’t all be as smart as you.

I worded that poorly, my apologies.

 

[Brodybreaux25]

My intent was to say take your time, read more than one article and try to poke holes in each argument. No one expects you to fully grasp this after 1 google search. It was not my intent to insult you.

 

[Lennoncham]

My intent was to say take your time, read more than one article and try to poke holes in each argument. No one expects you to fully grasp this after 1 google search. It was not my intent to insult you.

Ya I read it the wrong way. Again internet lost context. I get what your saying. And I didn’t see the bottom half of the article I was reading before I posted that lol. I just didn’t know what those parts of the brain did so I had to google it figure it out and I jumped the gun on my post without understanding it yet.

 

[Brodybreaux25]

No no! Please no misunderstand! I mean not to upset. I know it matters. Sorry to upset you. I know they not like handling and are look don’t touch pet. But we love watching and caring for them is what trying to say. Is that not more important then how complex their emotional comprehensibility? What trying to say is it matters how chameleons express self, but not how complex their emotion towards us. They do not like us, but we love them and care for them that is important, our love for them. Even if never touch pet in their life existence, we love them no matter! A lot like you all! You all are family, and love each other, this is topic not worthy of family stressing over? Different of opinion, yes? But should family not stick together? So very sorry for upsetting you, sir! Not mean to, only wanting to help calm fighting for no one gets upset. I am sorry, sir! I am really sorry, Mr Brody. May please forgive?

Only if you promise to never call me “Mr.” Again.

 

[GoodKarma19]

Alright, so, let's all agree to disagree. Bottom line, there's some form of "emotion" (or instinctal response to stimuli, whatever words you want to use), though it's likely very different from what we as humans experience.

So, now that that's out of the way, how about we focus on helping rather than talking in circles? I don't get frustrated often, but I'm profoundly irritated with the turn this thread has taken. Make a new thread if you want to discuss it. OP has been well and truly run off by now, anyway.

 

[kinyonga]

@Xenocrypted01 How's your chameleon's eye today? Did you take it to a vet? I hope you got/get the problem solved.

I'm sorry your thread got sidetracked. It doesn't help you get the help with the eye issue even if the topic it was sidetracked to is something that might be worth discussing in a thread of its own.

 

[The Wild One]

@Xenocrypted01 How's your chameleon's eye today? Did you take it to a vet? I hope you got/get the problem solved.

I'm sorry your thread got sidetracked. It doesn't help you get the help you asked for even if the topic it was sidetracked to is something that might be worth discussing in a thread of its own.

Don’t think your the only thread that does this lol @Xenocrypted01

 

[Brodybreaux25]

No, absolutely not. Chameleons do not have emotions, period.

This is not up for debate. All four of you are confusing involuntary instinctual reactions with some type of crude emotion. Wanting it does not make it true.

 

[JoXie411]

 

[Lennoncham]

No, absolutely not. Chameleons do not have emotions, period.

This is not up for debate. All four of you are confusing involuntary instinctual reactions with some type of crude emotion. Wanting it does not make it true.

Can I just say that you had a very good and valid point to begin with in this thread but you didn’t explain what you were saying so it turned into 3 pages of debating if chams have emotions instead of actually helping the op.

 

[Jammoos]

I think Brody had a great point and good intentions. Now, however, I think it's safe to say that we should turn the subject back to op and their watery-eyed chameleon. I'm sure by now they understand that the reason their chameleon is exhibiting certain behaviors is not due to loneliness or sadness. We should focus on the actual cause of these issues.

As I've said before above it sounds like Loki is climbing on you out of stress in his current enclosure. Nobody here meant to chase you away @Xenocrypted01 we just want Loki to be a happy chameleon and to ensure that you and other people reading this thread could get a basic understanding of what was going on. I can see how you would think Loki is missing you, and I'm sure you really care about him, nobody here thinks you're a bad chameleon owner. We really just want you to know what's going on w/ your cham.

 

[GoodKarma19]

No, absolutely not. Chameleons do not have emotions, period.

This is not up for debate. All four of you are confusing involuntary instinctual reactions with some type of crude emotion. Wanting it does not make it true.

This continues to fail to be helpful, Brody. We understand your point. You can stop beating the horse, now. It's dead.

 

[snitz427]

No, chameleons have absolutely no emotional capabilities whatsoever.

Walter’s disappointment on Dubia day is palpable.

 

[snitz427]

I didnt read the entire thread but I think coming to a conclusion on something so complicated without being a scientist in a related field is a bit close-minded. Its one thing to have an opinion, or an educated opinion, and another to write something off as impossible.

The very definition of emotion is “a natural instinctive state of mind deriving from ones circumstances, mood, or relationship with others.” if your chameleon is pissed off because you entered its space - thats an emotion, not an instinct. Flattening out, falling to the ground, or biting your finger off are the instincts, driven by the emotion of fear. Fight/flight is our natural response TO fear. Now I agree animals are pre-programmed to have a natural fear of things, but again fear is an emotion. So you cant use a blanket statement saying Chameleons cannot feel emotion.

My opinion is, unless we have vested scientists in the room, this is all open to interpretation. If when you say they cannot feel emotion, you mean that chameleons cannot feel love or attachment, thats one thing... but you cannot say they do not feel fear, desire, anxiety, anger, etc. Those are defined emotions that all of my chameleons most definitely feel and express.

 

[KobaOregonherper]

You subscribe to Descartes's automaton philosophy? How do you finish this sentence: "Chameleons change colors based on their "... ?

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[KobaOregonherper]

My Cham loves being taken out of his cage, and he either sits on top of my head/shoulder, or roams my bedroom. When I go to put him back, he always climbs up my arm, trying to get back on my shoulder/head. I had found this strange because anywhere I read says that they dont like being handled, but I got used to it. But that's not why I'm on here, Yesterday I left my house for half an hour to pick up feeder crickets for him, my baby beardie and my two sun skinks. I left Loki (my cham) on a branch I keep by his cage. When I got back he was still sitting there, but there was a stream of water running from his eye. When I walked up to the branch, he put his two front arms out and grabbed onto my shirt and started climbing. Is my cham lonely? Is there anything wrong with him?

Humans according to science feel love because of the need for a group. If you believe in evolution than this would be because of the evolutionary adaptation of strength in numbers. We build bonds, have friends, do group activities. Chameleons do not posses the part of the brain even required to process emotion. What @JoXie411 is describing could be construed as an emotion. Like when you hear a loud noise behind you and you feel your ear move or when you taste something sour and it makes your mouth clench. A chameleons has rudimentary reactions, but they dont feel love, hate or sadness. They experience, trust, dont trust and never trust. Then occasionally want to mate and dont want to mate. But these are not riddled with what we call emotion.

Your chameleons "love" for coming out of his cage may have an underlying issue in husbandry. Not ment to be mean, just that we as humans love to project our human emotions on animals. Which works exceptionally well with cats and dogs since dogs feel the love emotion 4x more than we do and also have the same pack mentality and cats have strong protective instincts.