Is my Panther a boy or a girl?!?!

[Cainschams]

C'mon Jared, you said it yourself. They're sexable out of the egg. But, after this many posts in the thread, why bother? Best (biggest) sex my panther thread yet. Keep it goin'! LOL

You are right! Anyone else want to chime in

Eliza, this is not a crapshoot. Yes there are lots of conflicting answers however there are a few people who have bred panthers, and are good at sexing them, tell the OP that it is a male. You can tell by tail base and color in the first and second set of pics. As Catherine pointed out he seems to be somewhat of a late bloomer because his package is not as noticeable as most at this size. There is no need to take it to a vet or a breeder. The pictures are sufficient and its a male. Simple as that.

 

[Elizadolots]

Eliza, this is not a crapshoot. Yes there are lots of conflicting answers however there are a few people who have bred panthers, and are good at sexing them, tell the OP that it is a male. You can tell by tail base and color in the first and second set of pics. As Catherine pointed out he seems to be somewhat of a late bloomer because his package is not as noticeable as most at this size. There is no need to take it to a vet or a breeder. The pictures are sufficient and its a male. Simple as that.

And...the newbie asking for help knows which answers can be trusted and which are uninformed how?

Also, initially, there was some very serious posting of both opinions. The case for "female" was made as well as the case for "male".

Look at this post by Julirs: https://www.chameleonforums.com/my-panther-boy-girl-36447/index2.html#post337531

Are you telling me that post is simply to be ignored out of hand?

 

[Julirs]

And...the newbie asking for help knows which answers can be trusted and which are uninformed how?

Also, initially, there was some very serious posting of both opinions. The case for "female" was made as well as the case for "male".

Look at this post by Julirs: https://www.chameleonforums.com/my-panther-boy-girl-36447/index2.html#post337531

Are you telling me that post is simply to be ignored out of hand?

Eliza-I see in many of your posts a recurring theme of "not knowing who to trust". After you have been a member of the forum for awhile, it will become obvious I think.
It was actually Kent and Cain and a few others that taught me how to sex them-they are pretty darn good at it, but I did have a few that suprised me, and in my clutch of Nosy cross babies I had some that defied color rules and one that people said was female that is most definitely a male. So the one in the thread probably is male, but I also do think they can suprise you. To me it is always easier to sex them from a picture-but I am sure that people that look at thousands of babies do it better hands on.

 

[Nixehface]

hmmm.
I think it's a boy but the 2 sets of pictures look completely different lol so you never know.
He does look more like a boy in the second set of pictures so that's what I'm basing it on really!

 

[Cainschams]

And...the newbie asking for help knows which answers can be trusted and which are uninformed how?

Also, initially, there was some very serious posting of both opinions. The case for "female" was made as well as the case for "male".

Look at this post by Julirs: https://www.chameleonforums.com/my-panther-boy-girl-36447/index2.html#post337531

Are you telling me that post is simply to be ignored out of hand?

Being a person that does not very easily trust people, I do realize where you are coming from. The first set of pics can be deceiving though. The animal in question was underwieght and obviously not cared for very well. I am sure this has something to do with his lack of package and along with the pictures not being very good I can see how one can come to that conclusion. So no, I do not think her first post is simply to be ignored. If you can see I chimed in after the second set of pics and I am sure the people who did say female who have experience will have changed their answer after seeing the second set.

It seems your trust issues are a little mixed up though. You wont trust people with experience in sexing baby panthers nor will you trust people with experience in importing but you will side with a person who has no experience trying to import a species from a place well known for scaming people with exotic animals. It makes no sense

We are all here to learn and share our experiences and thoughts so I hope you do not get offended or think I am picking you out when I post my opinions from your posts. I am surprised I have not been called an hole many times, however I usually do try to say something nice when I do not agree with a person

 

[PardalisGirl]

Keeping this thread going........

Thought I would keep this thread going for Kent. Years ago I had a he/she chameleon. Started out looking like a real female. As "she" grew she developed a very slight tail bulge and a coloration that I've never since seen in a female. No male would breed with her. When "she" saw a male she fired up to an ugly green yellow color. Males would fire up when they saw her. My vet did some probing and found her to have female equipment along with some underdeveloped male equipment. Her name was Olivia. I had her for three years. She never laid any eggs as her female equipment was not fully developed either. Here is Olivia, aka Oliver:

 

[Elizadolots]

It seems your trust issues are a little mixed up though. You wont trust people with experience in sexing baby panthers nor will you trust people with experience in importing but you will side with a person who has no experience trying to import a species from a place well known for scaming people with exotic animals. It makes no sense

I don't find it incredibly obvious who is to be trusted. People state "facts" that are exactly opposite the "facts" provided by others.

While it's possible that eventually I'll know who is to be trusted and who isn't, it seems reasonable to just assume that there are not a lot of "facts" but simply matters of opinion which differ.

In the case of the poster who'd payed for chameleons from Cameroon, a great many assumptions were made with no basis in fact. People here assumed that she had fallen for a scam without even asking her how she found the seller. It wasn't that I "sided" with her so much as I didn't jump on her and tell her she was making a mistake.

She seems to have been insulted by the assumption of stupidity and left. How did that help her?

I allowed for the possibility that she might know what she's doing.

It's highly likely that she was, indeed, being scammed. However, by giving her no credit whatsoever, she was driven away before some really productive advice (post the pictures, let's see if anyone recognizes them) was offered.

I think that giving her credit for intelligence could have lead her to reveal how she "found" the seller and maybe even to take a little time to make sure the situation was as legit as she thought it was. Alas...it didn't happen.

 

[Julirs]

Trust the people that have kept and bred chams for years and have experienced the issues that are brought up.

 

[Cainschams]

I am just too good at twisting a thread Sorry OP

Catherine, that is a sexy.....uh.....

 

[Kent67]

Ok, I tried to leave this alone, but I just can't. Sorry to the OP for hijacking. Your animal is a male. Some very experienced and even commercial panther chameleon breeders have all agreed male. There really shouldn't be any question at this point.

Now,

In the case of the poster who'd payed for chameleons from Cameroon, a great many assumptions were made with no basis in fact. People here assumed that she had fallen for a scam without even asking her how she found the seller. It wasn't that I "sided" with her so much as I didn't jump on her and tell her she was making a mistake.

First, she came here looking for advice on montium chameleons from people who know. Why? Because she didn't know. Does that really not seem like a safe assumption to make? She also stated all the animals needed to get across the border "is their perfect health forms and vet checks making sure they are de paracited...." Again, evidence was provided by both very knowledgable Americans AND Canadians that this was in fact false, with references even. As a simple Google search shows, internet scams originating from Cameroon are rampant. Also, if she somehow "knew" this person, like through a friend or relative, and knew she wasn't going to get scammed, she certainly could've offered us that information. Hell, a bunch of us would be lining up to buy from her seller if that were the case. She didn't give us anything like that. Not even close. In fact, she made it sound like she was even 50/50 on the "seller's" claim they were truly going to be cb, or even montiums for that matter!

If not or if i get a surprise in the species when they arrive i will keep you posted because i am just as intrested as you all are about this lol

Although more optimistic than the rest of us, she didn't know the seller or his reputation. Why would you still "allow" that she knew what she was doing? This makes no sense to me.

While you may not have "sided" with her, you helped turn that thread into that nonsense about everyone picking on Canada when it had nothing to do with Canada and everything to do with Cameroon. That certainly didn't help, did it? I personally felt invested in trying to prevent her from getting scammed. I'll sure know better next time!

As for scams, the Embassy's home page for Yaounde, Cameroon has an alert right in the middle of the page about not getting scammed by Cameroonians that takes you to an article that lists the most popular scams being child and WILDLIFE ones! If you saw 2,000 people in front of you flip a coin that always came up heads, would you bet several hundred dollars that your turn would come up tails? No, of course not. We tried to warn her that a bet with similar odds would end badly and that was wrong? What if it was your encouragement that lead to her getting scammed? That's ok??

She seems to have been insulted by the assumption of stupidity and left. How did that help her?

Really??? I just reread that whole thread and your post above is the ONLY one I can find that questions her intelligence. A few people said they doubted she knew what "all" the required documents would be but that in no way attacks her intelligence. Her last post was upbeat, optimistic, and stated that she would come back to tell us how they arrived the next day. She never logged in again after that. So, you don't think the animals not showing up couldn't have anything to do with her not coming back? Because, really, no one insulted her intelligence or Canada or anything else you thought you were reading.

I don't find it incredibly obvious who is to be trusted. People state "facts" that are exactly opposite the "facts" provided by others.

Independent verification. Personal research. It gets done all the time.

 

[Kent67]

Thought I would keep this thread going for Kent. Years ago I had a he/she chameleon....

Aw, thanks, Catherine. Gotta admit, first intersex chameleon I've heard of. But, why not? Genetics and development don't always work the way they're supposed to in any species so why not chams? Fascinating. While Olivia sure looked female in color and pattern, I would've said undeveloped male based on the tailbase. Jim F. has also talked about the odd intersex panther here and there but I've never seen pictures. Sometimes males just don't develop their organs as fast as others. Remember this one? Less than 3 months between these threads: https://www.chameleonforums.com/new-wild-girls-13070/ https://www.chameleonforums.com/k2-fire-15912/

 

[PardalisGirl]

Aw, thanks, Catherine. Gotta admit, first intersex chameleon I've heard of. But, why not? Genetics and development don't always work the way they're supposed to in any species so why not chams? Fascinating. While Olivia sure looked female in color and pattern, I would've said undeveloped male based on the tailbase. Jim F. has also talked about the odd intersex panther here and there but I've never seen pictures. Sometimes males just don't develop their organs as fast as others. Remember this one? Less than 3 months between these threads: https://www.chameleonforums.com/new-wild-girls-13070/ https://www.chameleonforums.com/k2-fire-15912/

That was a good series of posts on the WC female before and after. A few years ago I received a what was supposed to be 2.4 WC Nosy Mitsio. The calendar cover as photographed by Royden (my boy Lang) was one of those. The smallest "female" who was super dark (stress and parasites) turned out to be male after it settled in and got healthy.

Olivia, at the time those photographs were taken, was two years old. She was fully grown then. She was big for a female and small for a male. My vet is really into my chams and spends a lot of time going the extra mile whenever I come in. He spent a lot of time "scoping" Olivia to see what the deal was. She had mini hemipenis that were like little buds. They were not functional. Nothing was ever secreted from them. She had the "entry way" of a female so a male could have bred with her. At this point in my experience I would have done my own mini necropsy after she passed to see if she had all the necessary reproductive equipment. She never cycled between receptive and gravid and there was never any sign of eggs. I really loved her. She was a fun chameleon to have around. I felt really bummed after she died and buried her. If I had her now, I also would have named her "Lady Gaga"

 

[Elizadolots]

Ok, I tried to leave this alone, but I just can't. Sorry to the OP for hijacking. Your animal is a male. Some very experienced and even commercial panther chameleon breeders have all agreed male. There really shouldn't be any question at this point.

And, others who appear to be very serious and knowledgeable have said it's a female....

First, she came here looking for advice on montium chameleons from people who know. Why? Because she didn't know. Does that really not seem like a safe assumption to make?

That she did not know how to care for that particular breed does not equal her falling for a scam. My first thought was that she had a friend who had a reptile store and was able to arrange this for her. She did say she was "lucky".

She also stated all the animals needed to get across the border "is their perfect health forms and vet checks making sure they are de paracited...." Again, evidence was provided by both very knowledgable Americans AND Canadians that this was in fact false, with references even.

She said "They have sent all the documents insurance and everything and the vet and health certificates are coming with them with arrival."

https://www.chameleonforums.com/hel...hamaeleo-montium-36077/index2.html#post333857

"all documents" is not at all specific and while you assume (probably rightly) that it's incomplete or fraudulent, she thought she had what she needed to have.

As a simple Google search shows, internet scams originating from Cameroon are rampant.

Interestingly, they aren't about chameleons.

Also, if she somehow "knew" this person, like through a friend or relative, and knew she wasn't going to get scammed, she certainly could've offered us that information. Hell, a bunch of us would be lining up to buy from her seller if that were the case. She didn't give us anything like that. Not even close.

Correct, but if I were as defensive about something as she appeared to be I wouldn't have given you squat either.

Also, if it were a case of a friend "in the know" then she might well have been told "don't tell because normally he only deals with stores".

In fact, she made it sound like she was even 50/50 on the "seller's" claim they were truly going to be cb, or even montiums for that matter!

I agree she conveyed doubt about whether they were, in fact, wild caught animals. I sort of thought that added some validity to the story because if I were trying to scam some chick in America to buy my non-existent chameleons I would totally say "yes, this is the 4th generation of animals I've bred in my care"...not, "I caught the mother and she birthed them in my care"

Although more optimistic than the rest of us, she didn't know the seller or his reputation.

On what do you base that assertion? She didn't tell you so she must not have known? She said she was sure they were legit, not "they seem legit". What, specifically, in her posts makes you assert as a fact that she did not know the seller or his reputation?

Why would you still "allow" that she knew what she was doing? This makes no sense to me.

In the interest of keeping her posting and thinking and maybe learning...yes, I would totally tell her that she seemed to know what she was doing as I did even though I suspected she might be a victim of a scam. Insulting people does not lead to them learning. It might sort of work in schools where people are forced to attend, but in a voluntary situation such as this, it's a complete failure. The person insulted leaves (as she did).

Praising people for the things they seem to be doing right can lead to them being able to recognize the things they are doing wrong.

While you may not have "sided" with her, you helped turn that thread into that nonsense about everyone picking on Canada when it had nothing to do with Canada and everything to do with Cameroon. That certainly didn't help, did it? I personally felt invested in trying to prevent her from getting scammed. I'll sure know better next time!

Well, if I made a thread go south, I'm sorry for that. But, as noted, it was not me that drove the poster away before she could learn important facts like people here have been victims of scams from Cameroon. Or, important tools like posting the pictures of the animals you intend to purchase where people might recognize if they were hijacked pics.

And, it's an absolute fact that the laws in Canada are different and that all the posters who said "you can't bring them in" and such were wrong because they based that on American law.

If pointing out that the laws in other nations are different is an offense...well...I guess I offended. Odd that all those who posted absolute untruths about her situation are not being questioned...well..maybe not.

The fact that someone on this board was the victim of a Cameroon Chameleon scam should have been a very early post, no? Yet, it wasn't. That information might well have made her sit up and say "oh...hey..." but it wasn't offered up until after her last post.

As for scams, the Embassy's home page for Yaounde, Cameroon has an alert right in the middle of the page about not getting scammed by Cameroonians

ooooooo...wouldn't it have been so great if someone had pointed that out to her? Let's look at at that...

that takes you to an article that lists the most popular scams being child and WILDLIFE ones!

http://yaounde.usembassy.gov/scams_warning.html

The perpetrators of child adoption fraud often claim to be indigent parents unable to care for a child or members of the clergy working at a Cameroonian orphanage seeking a good home for a child. Other versions of this fraud involve wildlife, including birds (often parrots), dogs (Yorkshire terriers and bulldog puppies are frequently offered), and monkeys.

Yes...I had actually read that and noted the absence of reptile of any kind...do you sort of see why it might not have been obvious?

If you saw 2,000 people in front of you flip a coin that always came up heads, would you bet several hundred dollars that your turn would come up tails? No, of course not. We tried to warn her that a bet with similar odds would end badly and that was wrong? What if it was your encouragement that lead to her getting scammed? That's ok??

Your analogy is meaningless as it has nothing to do with the real situation. Rather than telling her that there had been instances of people being scammed by the promise of a Cameroon breeder, people here just said "it's a scam". What you are calling a "warning" was, in fact, a statement that she'd made a mistake. No one said "I'm concerned" or "I'm worried" or "It seems questionable" it was "You should back out".

She'd paid for the chameleons already. Even you have to admit that they were not being shipped COD. (though, that would be a great way of insuring it's not a scam: require shipment only on delivery) So nothing I posted changed her situation.

Out of deference to your position as a moderator, I'll reserve judgement on someone who would try to impose completely impossible guilt on another.

Really??? I just reread that whole thread and your post above is the ONLY one I can find that questions her intelligence. A few people said they doubted she knew what "all" the required documents would be but that in no way attacks her intelligence.

um....hard to reply to fantasy.

Her last post was upbeat, optimistic, and stated that she would come back to tell us how they arrived the next day.

Are you Sarah Palin? Here's a link to her last post in that thread:

https://www.chameleonforums.com/hel...hamaeleo-montium-36077/index3.html#post334296

Yes, everyone seems to be so biased against Canada. I do not live in some igloo, i live right across from the US Detroit border. Canadian borders no longer require permits if you are IMPORTING. If you infact are the exporter you need an importing and exporting license and your CITES permit. All that my chams need to get across the border is their perfect health forms and vet checks making sure they are de paracited, which they are going to be arrived with. Again i will let everyone know what ends up happening on thursday when they are suposed to arrive. Thanks for all the info guys

I checked her profile and that is the last post she made. Here's that link:

https://www.chameleonforums.com/search.php?searchid=761930

She never logged in again after that. So, you don't think the animals not showing up couldn't have anything to do with her not coming back?

Absolutely possible. Proven as fact? No. Highly likely? I'd say yes. If it had been me that was treated so rudely here and I'd gotten my shipment of chameleons I would have come back and posted picture to rub your noses in it....maybe she's not as mean as I am.

Because, really, no one insulted her intelligence or Canada or anything else you thought you were reading.

If I were the only one to "read" that, you'd have a point, but it does seem that she felt it too.

I'll note that I didn't get the idea that Canada was being insulted. I just thought people here were posting information based on American Law and it's not the same as Canadian Law....

She took that very badly. I add that to my argument that she was being defensive.


to be continued

 

[Elizadolots]

Independent verification. Personal research. It gets done all the time.

Interestingly, this forum sort of pops up in a Google search. It's why I'm here (waits while everyone posts a request to have the board taken out of the Google search).

I suspect she came here wanting intelligent discussion but got "back out, it's a scam"

While that was likely the best advice, she needed some reasoned posts to convince her...and she didn't get them until she'd left.... Sad.

 

[Julirs]

Interestingly, this forum sort of pops up in a Google search. It's why I'm here (waits while everyone posts a request to have the board taken out of the Google search).

Sad.

Why would we NOT want this on Google search?

Me thinks that if people tend to take the time to point out concerns with what you are posting, maybe one should think about what they post before they post it????

 

[ponders]

Wow,
And I thought we were trying to decide if the panther was a boy or a girl.

 

[PardalisGirl]

to be continued

Oh no..........please don't...........groan.....

Oops! Too late

Give it a rest. You've just insulted the intelligence of a lot of experienced people (including a woman, Sarah Palin, who has zero to to with this forum) while defending the intellegence of this person who sounds intent on doing something risky.

Trust or don't trust people on this forum as you wish. The average person who comes here is capable of figuring out who has the experience necessary to offer advice or suggestions. This forum has worked well in that regard for years. Some people can read/hear a boat load of good information and will go off and disregard it all anyway.

 

[Kent67]

um....hard to reply to fantasy.

It sure is. You win.

 

[Chigimonky]

Ok well...Thanks to everyone who has made comments on this thread in a constructive way and helped me to come to a stronger opinion concerning the sex of my baby panther. As for Elizadolots-of-arguing, please go get a capri sun and relax. Quit chunking up my thread with contention please.

Thanks to all the people who have given there opinions and to the experienced breeders who have given their educated conclusions. Your experience is so valuable to communities like this. Our hobby and our animals are so much better off with it.

I am sticking with male for now and I will be sure to add to this thread later on with new pictures to declare what this little critter really is!

 

[pssh]

I'm glad you didn't get put off by all of this. Sometimes people go off about other things, but it's usually very informative. Learn from it, it may help in the long run.

Keep us updated, I bet he'll have beautiful colors!